Phrag ID needed

[Orchidzrule]

Hi all,

I hope this is the appropriate location to post these photos because I am in need of ID help. This is a plant I purchased from a guy in my OS. He had purchased (I think) a flask from a grower, who mislabeled it and it does not seem to be as "advertized" which was Phrag Andean Fire X Hanne Popow. The only thing I'm sure of is it looks like it must have some longifolium in it, which neither of the purported parents have.

At any rate, here is the flower:

A friend suggested a photo of the plant, itself, might be useful as additional information, so here it is:

It's quite a robust plant, again arguing against a Hanne Popow X Andean Fire cross, with some of the largest leaves being over an inch in width. (Please don't be distracted by the Phal aphrodite flowers.)

I *do* have a purported ID, but I'm not totally happy with it and, although I will share it, I thought I'd post the photos without it first just so you aren't possibly being misled. All thoughts and guesses are welcome!

Cheers,
Rob

 

[SlipperKing]

The flower doesn't look completely mature. At this point it looks like my E. Young X S Apprentice plants

 

[smartie2000]

you are correct that the leaves are too big for the cross! the flower has more to develop....

perhaps something with Eric Young in it?

 

[Kevin]

Can you trace it back to where it originally came from? That might help. Kind of looks like Sergeant Eric (or one of the many longifolium/besseae crosses out there - they all tend to look the same!).

 

[parvi_17]

I would bet it's a Sergeant Eric. It has the Eric Young color, the sargentianum spots on the pouch infolds (although Eric Young can have spots too), and the big sargentianum leaves. If it's not Sergeant Eric, it's definitely something from similar breeding.

 

[smartie2000]

you need to repot it into a larger pot. Phrag roots need room to grow!!! I don't worry about overpotting on Phrags as long as it is a vigorous plant.

but the color is so pale for a Sergeant Eric. It could be a Phrag Young Lindley (Eric Young x lindleyanum) But problem is that both Young Lindley and Sergeant Eric have more spotting inside the pouch. I don't think there would be much variation in this. I always look at the spotting for my ID's, and the staminode.

I want to throw out another name. It could be Saint Peter. That's Eric Young x longifolium

 

[parvi_17]

The photos I'm looking at in OrchidWiz don't have more spotting than this plant. I'm also not seeing that much of a color difference between Sergeant Eric and Young Lindley, and the photos I'm looking at of Sergeant Eric are pretty close to this. It could definitely be either one though.

How would you figure a Sorcerer's Apprentice cross would remove the spotting? I've never seen a Sorcerer's Apprentice without spotting. That cross inherits great spotting from sargentianum, and longifolium usually has spotting too, which is why many Eric Youngs have some spotting. Besides that, this plant has spotting, so a cross without spotting would not match this.

Despite all this, it's pretty hard to be positive about what it is.

 

[smartie2000]

How would you figure a Sorcerer's Apprentice cross would remove the spotting? I've never seen a Sorcerer's Apprentice without spotting. That cross inherits great spotting from sargentianum, and longifolium usually has spotting too, which is why many Eric Youngs have some spotting. Besides that, this plant has spotting, so a cross without spotting would not match this.

sorry...I changed my mind about Phrag After-Glo (Eric young x Sorcerer's Apprentice) because it was a silly comment so I deleted my post...

 

[NYEric]

If it is Phrag Strawberry Rush it has gone all the way back to it's besseae and lindleyanum ancestors. Can't help w/ a specific ID.

 

[parvi_17]

I want to throw out another name. It could be Saint Peter. That's Eric Young x longifolium

Saint Peter is a good guess too. As this flower does appear to be immature, the petals could lengthen a bit. Time may give the verdict!

 

[SlipperFan]

I don't think it's St. Peter. At least not like the one I have, which is yellow on the interior, not green, even when first opening. Spotting is very different, also: http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10943&highlight=Peter

 

[parvi_17]

I don't think it's St. Peter. At least not like the one I have, which is yellow on the interior, not green, even when first opening. Spotting is very different, also: http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10943&highlight=Peter

Definitely they tend to have faint or no spotting. Are you referring to the ventral sepal being green in the NOID? Because the pouch interior does look yellow on my monitor.

Unless the petals grow, I don't think it's a Saint Peter either.

 

[SlipperFan]

Are you referring to the ventral sepal being green in the NOID? Because the pouch interior does look yellow on my monitor.

Unless the petals grow, I don't think it's a Saint Peter either.

Both my computers monitors show the inside of the pouch being more green than yellow, as well as the center part of the petals and into the dorsal sepal.

 

[SlipperKing]

Here is a link to a Phrag After-Glo that I bloomed.
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12533

 

[Jorch]

It looks like a paler version of JP's Red Talisman
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14369&highlight=talisman

 

[Orchidzrule]

Thanks everyone for your thoughts, opinions & guesses on my Phrag. In response to the comments that the flower was immature and needed to develop, I am adding some photos taken today, about a week later. (The first photos were taken when the flower had been open 24 hours.)

I would be interested in hearing if anyone has changed his or her opinion, after looking at these, but I'm inclined to agree my plant is indeed, Sergeant Eric. The shape of the laterals have remained very horizontal, the pouch shape looks great for it, and it has the characteristic spotting. The only reservation I have is the color is a trifle on the pale side. I also like Jorch's suggestion of a pale Red Talisman, but I lean toward Sergeant Eric.

I asked because I'd been told, shortly before the plant bloomed, that the original vendor had goofed and the so-called Strawberry Rush plants were not "as advertised", but the other possibility was they would be Noirmont. Once the flower was open, I strongly disagreed with the latter call, and decided to solicit opinions that weren't biased by that almost certain miscall. It was most interesting and instructive nobody suggested it as a possibility!

A couple more comments. The interior of the pouch is definitely yellow now. (It was probably more green to begin with.) If it comes across differently, then it's a failure of my photography and/or your monitor. (Most likely the former!) The base of the dorsal and laterals, however, are definitely slightly chartreuse, and the lower sepal (especially visible in the second photo) is still more chartreuse.

Thanks again to everyone who commented. Perhaps a couple more things are worth responding to. Fren suggested repotting into a larger pot. I planned to do so, when I bought the plant in late November but the Christmas rush got in the way and by the time I was ready, it had initiated the spike. I thought I'd wait until the spike was done--looks like two more buds on it. What size of pot would you suggest? It's in a 3.5 inch pot now. Also, it's currently in LECA, and normally sits in a saucer with water. Continue with it, or use something else? I'm really a novice with Phrags!

Cheers,
Rob

 

[parvi_17]

In terms of the ID, I'm pretty convinced now that it's a Sergeant Eric. When I look at this flower, I see three species in it: besseae, longifolium, and sargentianum (and I don't see a double shot of any of them). It could also be lindleyanum instead of sargentianum, that's a tough call. But because Young Lindley is not as common of a hybrid, and the pics I've seen of it actually look more yellow than this to me (on Google - the OrchidWiz pic looks darker...), I'm leaning towards Sergeant Eric. Even though the ID is pretty tough to be 100% positive on, you at least know what kind of breeding this is, and I would be putting Sergeant Eric on the tag if it were my plant.

As far as the repotting goes, just choose a pot that the roots fit into comfortably; give the roots a couple inches of room around the diameter of the pot. The medium you choose is entirely up to you - if LECA works well for you (and it seems to be!), then stick with that. It really depends on your growing style.

 

[SlipperFan]

It could very easily be Sergeant Eric. The ones I've seen in person were very much like this color.

 

[smartie2000]

It is definitely not Saint Peter! Sargeant Eric is a fair ID. It does have a Sargeant Eric's petal stance. Good enough....I don't think you plan to breed it (and I don't think it is going to get a FCC/AOS, no offence) so its not that important is it?

I also suggest Phrag Inca Embers and Noirmont. Based on google photos, generally Inca Embers have fewer pouch spots, and spots that are closer to the centre of the pouch. I tend think there would be more longifolium than sargentianum/lindleyanum, because sargiantianum/lindleyanum is covered in spots inside of the pouch. Your plant has very few spots. (but genetics is interesting, plants vary...)

I did get a Phrag Inca Gold from orchids by kimberly before...I don't know if that might fit in since I don't know where your plant came from, but she's in the same region to where you are. I think Inca Gold has potential for blooms like this.

Repot it into anything you like, hybrid phrags will take nearly anything