question about Paphiopedilum rungsuryianum

[BrucherT]

i hope this question is ok to ask here: I would very much like to grow P. rungsuryianum but I do not want a poached plant or to break any laws. I see them on eBay sometimes but they look collected. But is this species being cultivated and propagated from seed by responsible growers? Will it and other newer species ever become available by flask? I’m kind of afraid even to ask this question but I figure if it’s a problem, someone will delete it. Hope it’s ok though.

 

[Ozpaph]

'legality' depends on which country you live.
People have plants and flasks in Australia.
I believe i saw flasks advertised by a Taiwanese grower recently.

 

[Camellkc]

There are artificially produced adult plants for this species in Taiwan. Easier to grow in my opinion.

 

[NYEric]

There are no legal rung unless you got them from the person who discovered/collected them and live in the same country.

 

[Guldal]

There are no legal rung unless you got them from the person who discovered/collected them and live in the same country.

Doesn't this depend on the way you obtained the plant? I mean Paph. thaianum could for a periode not be bought as a plant cultivated from seeds, and possesion would thus be considered a CITES-offence, no matter what. I presume, it wouldn't nowadays be considered the same, if the plants are nursery bread and imported with the necessary CITES-papers?

There are artificially produced adult plants for this species in Taiwan. Easier to grow in my opinion.

If it is possible to obtain a CITES-permit for importing these plants, wouldn't it then be okay for the importer/the individual orchid grower? But one might wonder, whether such a permit would be obtainable for the taiwanese nurseries without legit documentation for how they in the first place obtained the plants, they bred from? And wouldn't they in this connection have to provide plausible documentation for the timespan elapsed since the species was discovered - and now where they offer adult plants for sale?

 

[Camellkc]

Doesn't this depend on the way you obtained the plant? I mean Paph. thaianum could for a periode not be bought as a plant cultivated from seeds, and possesion would thus be considered a CITES-offence, no matter what. I presume, it wouldn't nowadays be considered the same, if the plants are nursery bread and imported with the necessary CITES-papers?



If it is possible to obtain a CITES-permit for importing these plants, wouldn't it then be okay for the importer/the individual orchid grower? But one might wonder, whether such a permit would be obtainable for the taiwanese nurseries without legit documentation for how they in the first place obtained the plants, they bred from? And wouldn't they in this connection have to provide plausible documentation for the timespan elapsed since the species was discovered - and now where they offer adult plants for sale?

I think the parents for them are wild plants, the owner stated that they growth them from flask seedlings are from Thailand and can reach blooming size in 3 years. Applying CITES in Taiwan is easy but only for hybrids, using species to make CITES needs to have some techniques.

Yes, adult plants are available in Taiwan but the source I know does not export paphs overseas.

 

[Paph Paradise]

This species is not legal in the USA. There have been plants offered with CITIES from Thailand, but that is not their country of origin so the CITES is not valid.

The species is from Laos and they do not participate in CITES so there is no way to get them legally in the USA. The only way we will have them is for someone to get caught by Fish and Wildlife and have their plants seized and sent to a rescue center.

There is someone on eBay offering several illegal species from time to time. He refuses to offer paperwork to customers when asked and simply claims they are ‘legal’. He has been reported to F&W several times. We can only hope that they are working on it and will eventually take away his plants and get them to a rescue center.

Bottom line is: stay away from illegal plants. Is it really worth having your collection raided, fines, legal fees, etc. over some flowers?

 

[BrucherT]

'legality' depends on which country you live.
People have plants and flasks in Australia.
I believe i saw flasks advertised by a Taiwanese grower recently.

I would love a flask or a seed-grown plant. I do not want a poached plant or to participate in poaching. I don’t understand why it’s still happening when the contents of one seed pod could supply all possible desires for a species. That’s the movement I’d like to push: collection of seed only, never taking grown plants from the wild.

 

[BrucherT]

This species is not legal in the USA. There have been plants offered with CITIES from Thailand, but that is not their country of origin so the CITES is not valid.

The species is from Laos and they do not participate in CITES so there is no way to get them legally in the USA. The only way we will have them is for someone to get caught by Fish and Wildlife and have their plants seized and sent to a rescue center.

There is someone on eBay offering several illegal species from time to time. He refuses to offer paperwork to customers when asked and simply claims they are ‘legal’. He has been reported to F&W several times. We can only hope that they are working on it and will eventually take away his plants and get them to a rescue center.

Bottom line is: stay away from illegal plants. Is it really worth having your collection raided, fines, legal fees, etc. over some flowers?

Thank you for this response and I just want to be clear: I do not want to violate CITES and I absolutely repudiate poaching and poached plants. The only way I want this species is acquired through seed-grown cultivation. I’m just confused by what I see. Two years ago, when I first discovered eBay, I paid $50 to someone who was selling this species; I stupidly assume that if it was on eBay it must be legal. Now I know better and would never do it again. The plants never arrived and I ended up filing a complaint and getting my money refunded. And now that I’ve learned how dire the conservation situation is and what plants are prohibited, it’s a huge relief that the plants never came because I would feel awful and not know what to do. So again, I am only looking for legally cultivated seed-grown specimens. There must be a process for a species going from complete prohibition to responsible cultivation...I waited a long time to get P. helenae and now it’s widely available and reasonably priced to boot. So my post is just to ask those who really know, who have experience and knowledge of the RIGHT way to get a plant. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify that.

 

[Paph Paradise]

Thank you for this response and I just want to be clear: I do not want to violate CITES and I absolutely repudiate poaching and poached plants. The only way I want this species is acquired through seed-grown cultivation. I’m just confused by what I see. Two years ago, when I first discovered eBay, I paid $50 to someone who was selling this species; I stupidly assume that if it was on eBay it must be legal. Now I know better and would never do it again. The plants never arrived and I ended up filing a complaint and getting my money refunded. And now that I’ve learned how dire the conservation situation is and what plants are prohibited, it’s a huge relief that the plants never came because I would feel awful and not know what to do. So again, I am only looking for legally cultivated seed-grown specimens. There must be a process for a species going from complete prohibition to responsible cultivation...I waited a long time to get P. helenae and now it’s widely available and reasonably priced to boot. So my post is just to ask those who really know, who have experience and knowledge of the RIGHT way to get a plant. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to clarify that.

We have Paph helenae because someone was caught smuggling and the plants went to a rescue center. Rescue centers will set pods on seized plants. Under the current structure of CITES this is the only way we can get species native to countries that do not participate in the program (at least in the USA).

It is unfortunate that CITES was not well thought out with regards to plants. Like you said, a single seed pod could provide all the plants we need to establish a population for the hobby.

Peru handled the discovery of Phrag kovachii by allowing 2 nurseries to collect a few plants, then took a few $$ on each flask they produced. The wild population was still ravaged by poachers, but now there are so many cultivated plants the wild ones are in less demand. Too bad other countries haven’t followed this example.

 

[valenzino]

If you are in Europe I can provide flasks..still have available 1-2....or later compots...

 

[NYEric]

Ay caramba!!!