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So would sunlight roth primarily hybrids have the same name as normal roth primarily hybrids?
Sunlight Sky Roths Roths Roths
- Thread starter SelectOrchids
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Then that would be really lucky indeed. All the ones I saw from the Indonesian traders on Facebook even as of today were the Pinnochio types...
Even this:
Is Pinnochio yellow....
There are very few plants of the true primulinum in cultivation, as well owing to the fact that they are very small, with narrow leaves, and very small flowers... The flowers are always fragrant, kind of jasmine.
Here is the herbarium specimen of primulinum, note that the scale is in cm...
https://powo.science.kew.org/taxon/urn:lsid:ipni.org:names:649815-1
Of course not, they need new names, as they are not roth primary hybrids. The idea is to replace the roth in many primaries and novelties with Sunlight Sky Roths to get something like roth hybrids on steroids, normally, without cheating...
Stonei prefers to be grown warm, and very, very heavy feeding. The roots, for once, do not like to be disturbed too much at the wrong time... They love lime as well.
They grow extremely fast in warm to hot climates actually....
I've been considering heated benches for my next greenhouse build. How heavy is very very heavy? I'm currently feeding 175 ppm N every watering with a formula close to your published regimen.
I'm wondering if mine may have been the true species. It was tiny, both plant and flower, compared to known Pinocchio and the foliage had a very different look. The flower was fragrant. I sold it off because it wasn't a particularly impressive plant.
Happypaphy7
Paphlover
While waiting on Xavier's reply, I think the flower looks to be huge although that could be due to the angle of the photo. The plant does seems rather compact but unless you see the whole bunch of plants from a given cross, it is also hard to estimate one way or another.
I wonder if I've ever seen a real primulinum after reading these commments.
wonder if Xavier can show us photos comparing a real deal and a fake. I bet they look pretty much the same.
Happypaphy7
Paphlover
Your winter might be too cold for stonei but the rest of the year it is pretty dang hot especailly since you grow your plants in the greenhouse. I doubt the species grows "extrememely" fast in warm/hot weather depending on what exactly is intended by extrememly fast.
I didn't keep measurements but it was less than half the size of the Pinnochio I've bloomed.
albinonih13
New Member
I own a Sunlight Roth x roth and I was told it was Lady Isabel x roth x roth and was never deceived into thinking it was roth x roth. I like it too pretty not awardable flower but very nice.
Kalyke
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I think I am on the side of the purists. I am a rainbowfish enthusiast as well. They are quite rare in their natural range due to gold mining slag in New Guinea. The sites are kept secret, but entire stream ecosystems are killed off by ignorant locals trying to get minerals from the ground. Helpful Westerners (also idiots) come in and "reintroduce" fish from fish stores-- thinking they were helping-- and destroy the genetics of an area that would not have ever encountered the fish in the wild. There are people who would say "AS long as they are still living, what matters which species is introduced-- hybrid vigor." I feel I am wrong on one side citing pure genetics, eventually, the polar bear will meet the brown bear and mate, but on the other hand, It is nice to have something that has not had humans paw prints on it. -- other than Orchid roots, can a person like me find if my roths were pure if people are omitting facts (AKA lying).
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You make a fair point. Unfortunately even "best intentions " can backfire. As Dave mentioned, we really don't have any idea what is desirable for natural pollinators or selection of roths and many other orchid species. However, we do know genetic drift happens and it is reasonable to assume any traits that are not necessary or directly selected would be lost. Especially true if those traits are in repulsion to the traits we humans desire. Therefore, the cultivated species will eventually be very different from their original counterparts regardless of the breeding- selection through mutations or recombinations.
The best way to save the "natural species " is to leave it alone. Don't take anything out, don't put anything in. Best way to encourage this is to make the cultivated versions so much better that people wouldn't want to go back to the wild types. Botanical gardens are also good places for genetic preservation.
Kalyke
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I agree. In the way is the reputation created to make one plant (Roths) seem so desirable, and that, unfortunately, can be laid at the foot of earlier collectors (as well as recent breeders). They make it seem so desirable, and so expensive that people will tear them from the ground-- die for them, destroy a whole forest for them (etc). Perhaps until they all become common grocery store plants in every color and size.
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interesting thing i just found in a vendor listing
tnyr5
Well-Known Member
That one's a toughie. It's a badly overexposed photo with the camera flash right in the flower's face. There's a reason AOS doesn't allow that for official photos.
Good afternoon all. Normally I would not bump an old thread. However, this thread needs some updated and accurate information.
The Roth's in question all come from the Sunlight Orchid Nursery. They, like most of the Taiwanese slipper nurseries, have many clients around the world. I have had a longstanding friendship with one European nursery owner who has been dealing with Sunlight for many years, and a new friendship/introduction that also has been dealing with Sunlight Orchid Nursery for many years. Since I own a few Roth crosses that come from this nursery I thought I would pick their brains and ask some pointed questions. After all, the time and space we invest into a mature roth is considerable and I don't need any more hybrids. Both nursery owners, neither of whom knew I was asking the same questions to the other, gave me the same answers. I skipped a call to Sunlight as their answers would be as expected. However, if you are so inclined, call them yourself and don't rely on the opinions of others, especially those who have never had first hand contact with that nursery.
"Sunlight Rothschildianum", a poor choice of name for a hybrid if ever there was one, is a cross between Lady Rothschild and rothschildianum. This makes Sunlight Rothschildianum 87.5% roth and 12.5% stonei. The slippers are an unmistakable red. Sunlight Orchids sells, or sold, these as hybrids with no representations that they were Roth species. They also breed straight roths, and use clonal names that incorporate the word "Sunlight", as seen in the photo and cross in the prior post. "Sunlight Giant" and "Sunlight Rothschildianum" are not the same cross, nor the same parent. "Sunlight Giant" is a clonal name for a roth they used as a parent. "Sunlight Rothschildiaum" is the hybrid. Both commercial nurseries, one a long standing and well known slipper breeder and dealer, are confident that what is sold by Sunlight as roths are indeed roths and what bears the name "Sunlight Rothschildianum" is sold as, and accepted as, a hybrid. The Sunlight nursery roths that I have seen, and flowered myself, are indisquinshable from the species and I trust that they are true roths and not hybrids.
Could this nursery owner have chosen a better name for the hybrid than "Sunlight Rothschildianum", of course. That name alone can cause some concern. There is not, however, any representation that I am aware of either personally or through third parties that deal with this nursery regularly, that the roth species he breeds and sells as species are actually hybrids.
Lastly, a re-read of this conversation, as well as some of the posts circulating on Facebook about Sunlight Nursery, indicate to me (and others, they can speak for themselves if they choose), that there seems to be thread of "I can't believe he breeds roths like that, therefore they must be hybrids" envy seeping into our thinking. It must be frustrating to invest 7-10 years into a flask of rothschildianum only to have those plants flower and be 'outdated' the moment you see them, surpassed by other breeding lines. The Taiwanese have been breeding for a very long time for size and dorsal, and a breakthrough that improves the species and ups the standard should not always be met with derision and unsupported personal conjecture that the plants must be hybrids as there is no other possible explanation for the improvement.
As for other representations of hybrids being planted in the jungle, this is not new. Those of us who have been involved with slipper orchids long enough remember several prominent voices asserting that Paph. intaniae was a hybrid planted in the jungle, that Paph. wardii is a natural, or even man made hybrid planted in the jungle, in addition to more recent speculation that primulinum does exist in natural populations, that all the plants are hybrids. None of this speculation was, or is, true, and speculation is exactly what it is. Assertions along the lines of 'I know' are still speculation as these voices were not party to planting hybrids nor were they told by these alleged plant - planters of their schemes. Those of us who have been involved in slippers long enough have also come to accept these proclamations from certain people with a grain of salt. The same people keep pushing the same things, only the details change.
These proclamations ignore basic concepts of pollination, biology and ecology which weight heavily against long term planted populations of hybrids being a reality. And why not ask why something more interesting was not planted in the jungle? A man made cross between glaucophyllum and primulinum is the most imaginative you can get?
Sunlight Giant x Kuang Hua Villiage is a roth, and Paph. primulinum does still exist in natural populations. It is very rare, but it exists. Don't be tricked into thinking and plant that has longer leaves, or wider leaves, or shorter leaves than the type must be a hybrid, or if your flower is a bit bigger or more green or more yellow it isn't real. Every species has variations, that's why we do this, right? To breed for and select the best flowers? If they were all identical, what would be the point.
Time to move on from some of this nonsense.
Best,
The Roth's in question all come from the Sunlight Orchid Nursery. They, like most of the Taiwanese slipper nurseries, have many clients around the world. I have had a longstanding friendship with one European nursery owner who has been dealing with Sunlight for many years, and a new friendship/introduction that also has been dealing with Sunlight Orchid Nursery for many years. Since I own a few Roth crosses that come from this nursery I thought I would pick their brains and ask some pointed questions. After all, the time and space we invest into a mature roth is considerable and I don't need any more hybrids. Both nursery owners, neither of whom knew I was asking the same questions to the other, gave me the same answers. I skipped a call to Sunlight as their answers would be as expected. However, if you are so inclined, call them yourself and don't rely on the opinions of others, especially those who have never had first hand contact with that nursery.
"Sunlight Rothschildianum", a poor choice of name for a hybrid if ever there was one, is a cross between Lady Rothschild and rothschildianum. This makes Sunlight Rothschildianum 87.5% roth and 12.5% stonei. The slippers are an unmistakable red. Sunlight Orchids sells, or sold, these as hybrids with no representations that they were Roth species. They also breed straight roths, and use clonal names that incorporate the word "Sunlight", as seen in the photo and cross in the prior post. "Sunlight Giant" and "Sunlight Rothschildianum" are not the same cross, nor the same parent. "Sunlight Giant" is a clonal name for a roth they used as a parent. "Sunlight Rothschildiaum" is the hybrid. Both commercial nurseries, one a long standing and well known slipper breeder and dealer, are confident that what is sold by Sunlight as roths are indeed roths and what bears the name "Sunlight Rothschildianum" is sold as, and accepted as, a hybrid. The Sunlight nursery roths that I have seen, and flowered myself, are indisquinshable from the species and I trust that they are true roths and not hybrids.
Could this nursery owner have chosen a better name for the hybrid than "Sunlight Rothschildianum", of course. That name alone can cause some concern. There is not, however, any representation that I am aware of either personally or through third parties that deal with this nursery regularly, that the roth species he breeds and sells as species are actually hybrids.
Lastly, a re-read of this conversation, as well as some of the posts circulating on Facebook about Sunlight Nursery, indicate to me (and others, they can speak for themselves if they choose), that there seems to be thread of "I can't believe he breeds roths like that, therefore they must be hybrids" envy seeping into our thinking. It must be frustrating to invest 7-10 years into a flask of rothschildianum only to have those plants flower and be 'outdated' the moment you see them, surpassed by other breeding lines. The Taiwanese have been breeding for a very long time for size and dorsal, and a breakthrough that improves the species and ups the standard should not always be met with derision and unsupported personal conjecture that the plants must be hybrids as there is no other possible explanation for the improvement.
As for other representations of hybrids being planted in the jungle, this is not new. Those of us who have been involved with slipper orchids long enough remember several prominent voices asserting that Paph. intaniae was a hybrid planted in the jungle, that Paph. wardii is a natural, or even man made hybrid planted in the jungle, in addition to more recent speculation that primulinum does exist in natural populations, that all the plants are hybrids. None of this speculation was, or is, true, and speculation is exactly what it is. Assertions along the lines of 'I know' are still speculation as these voices were not party to planting hybrids nor were they told by these alleged plant - planters of their schemes. Those of us who have been involved in slippers long enough have also come to accept these proclamations from certain people with a grain of salt. The same people keep pushing the same things, only the details change.
These proclamations ignore basic concepts of pollination, biology and ecology which weight heavily against long term planted populations of hybrids being a reality. And why not ask why something more interesting was not planted in the jungle? A man made cross between glaucophyllum and primulinum is the most imaginative you can get?
Sunlight Giant x Kuang Hua Villiage is a roth, and Paph. primulinum does still exist in natural populations. It is very rare, but it exists. Don't be tricked into thinking and plant that has longer leaves, or wider leaves, or shorter leaves than the type must be a hybrid, or if your flower is a bit bigger or more green or more yellow it isn't real. Every species has variations, that's why we do this, right? To breed for and select the best flowers? If they were all identical, what would be the point.
Time to move on from some of this nonsense.
Best,
Well,well, seems you mix up everything:
Unfortunately, the damn hybrid is named Sunlight Sky Roths. Except that they registered it, Sunlight Nursery has nothing to do with the scam the nurseries are doing with this hybrid...
https://www.facebook.com/sunlight.orchid.nursery
If you look, they have roths with a dorsal of 6, etc... and those are rothschildianum. They were not the only ones to have made Sunlight Sky Roths as well, at least 3 nurseries made their own... They were the first ones to register it, however.
That's the flock of other nurseries who got Sunlight Sky Roths, and sell them as rothschildianum. It is not a matter of 'belief', but the worst is that at least 2 idiots on Facebook posted their roth with a dorsal of 8+cm in front of many Sunlight Sky Roths, where 7-8 cm is a kind of norm. So nothing about believe,those are just facts.
For the scheme, as a very famous Paphiopedilum supplier told me once, it does not matter what is sold, because most hobbyists won't bloom them... It gives the general vibes about the commercial side of the plants.
As several extremely famous ones, including Japanese, are doing too, they come to Holland and load pot plant Complex paphs to sell them with a pedigree... or to a large wholesale nursery ( again not involved with what their customers are doing...) in Germany, buy generic paphs, and put a pedigree/photos of the parents on it. It is a significant part of the Paph business. I have seen it many times, and have been a witness to it in a few instances.
That's why I know too that many of the largest esquirolei awarded are in fact Hans Strahl. The people who got several FCC ( and a GM/WOC in Dijon) visited Wichmann couple days before, bought Hans Strahl, and the same plant/same flower reappears as a top quality esquirolei... SOme ordered as well in a shipment, some bought from another nursery in Germany as 'giant esquirolei'. There are F2 now sold as esquiroei in Japan too, with weird dorsals and petals, typical of the hybrid.
For the primulinum and the honesty of the Indonesian parts, well it is simple. 'wild' Paph superbiens show a plain callosum dorsals in some of them. Selfing of them, again, show a callosum dorsal. Agusii x self gives some urbanianum, nearly straight. If I had not been told that agusii was a 'species', and just show photos, I would have said it is an urbanianum hybrid. Some of the 'wild plants cannot be distinguished from urbanianum as well.I can post photos of these.
In the wild you woud be surprised as to what can survive, including hybrids... There are sometimes colonies with a few dozens Glanzeanum that are found in North Vietnam ( micranthum x emersonii), and sold. It is not rare to see in gratrixianum colonies hybrids with helenae, and hybrids with villosum, etc... Pollinators are not as species specific as some would like, after all. roth x dayanum, dayanum x volonteanum, virens x volonteanum exists, and are regularly offered as wild plants... In non orchids, there are hybrids colonies of Nepenther edwardsiana, that propagates and give Fx offsprings...
For primulinum x glaucophyllum, easy. The 'real' primulinum is hardto grow and quite slow. The hybrids multiplies at light speed, even in nurseries in Kunming, they set seeds and you get young plants all over the place... There is no 'variation' as well that will make those plants have glaucophyllum style leaves for some of them... Otherwise we need to accept that Paph White Knight is in fact a pure niveum, because the flowers are white and round...
Unfortunately, the damn hybrid is named Sunlight Sky Roths. Except that they registered it, Sunlight Nursery has nothing to do with the scam the nurseries are doing with this hybrid...
https://www.facebook.com/sunlight.orchid.nursery
If you look, they have roths with a dorsal of 6, etc... and those are rothschildianum. They were not the only ones to have made Sunlight Sky Roths as well, at least 3 nurseries made their own... They were the first ones to register it, however.
That's the flock of other nurseries who got Sunlight Sky Roths, and sell them as rothschildianum. It is not a matter of 'belief', but the worst is that at least 2 idiots on Facebook posted their roth with a dorsal of 8+cm in front of many Sunlight Sky Roths, where 7-8 cm is a kind of norm. So nothing about believe,those are just facts.
For the scheme, as a very famous Paphiopedilum supplier told me once, it does not matter what is sold, because most hobbyists won't bloom them... It gives the general vibes about the commercial side of the plants.
As several extremely famous ones, including Japanese, are doing too, they come to Holland and load pot plant Complex paphs to sell them with a pedigree... or to a large wholesale nursery ( again not involved with what their customers are doing...) in Germany, buy generic paphs, and put a pedigree/photos of the parents on it. It is a significant part of the Paph business. I have seen it many times, and have been a witness to it in a few instances.
That's why I know too that many of the largest esquirolei awarded are in fact Hans Strahl. The people who got several FCC ( and a GM/WOC in Dijon) visited Wichmann couple days before, bought Hans Strahl, and the same plant/same flower reappears as a top quality esquirolei... SOme ordered as well in a shipment, some bought from another nursery in Germany as 'giant esquirolei'. There are F2 now sold as esquiroei in Japan too, with weird dorsals and petals, typical of the hybrid.
For the primulinum and the honesty of the Indonesian parts, well it is simple. 'wild' Paph superbiens show a plain callosum dorsals in some of them. Selfing of them, again, show a callosum dorsal. Agusii x self gives some urbanianum, nearly straight. If I had not been told that agusii was a 'species', and just show photos, I would have said it is an urbanianum hybrid. Some of the 'wild plants cannot be distinguished from urbanianum as well.I can post photos of these.
In the wild you woud be surprised as to what can survive, including hybrids... There are sometimes colonies with a few dozens Glanzeanum that are found in North Vietnam ( micranthum x emersonii), and sold. It is not rare to see in gratrixianum colonies hybrids with helenae, and hybrids with villosum, etc... Pollinators are not as species specific as some would like, after all. roth x dayanum, dayanum x volonteanum, virens x volonteanum exists, and are regularly offered as wild plants... In non orchids, there are hybrids colonies of Nepenther edwardsiana, that propagates and give Fx offsprings...
For primulinum x glaucophyllum, easy. The 'real' primulinum is hardto grow and quite slow. The hybrids multiplies at light speed, even in nurseries in Kunming, they set seeds and you get young plants all over the place... There is no 'variation' as well that will make those plants have glaucophyllum style leaves for some of them... Otherwise we need to accept that Paph White Knight is in fact a pure niveum, because the flowers are white and round...
P. superbiens:
more than 10 years ago about 150 plants were imported to Germany from Sumatra as P. x frankeanum.
When the first plants from it flowered, Holger Perner identified these plants as true P. superbiens. 15 of these plants flowered for me and an orchid friend - all typical for superbiens.
Two of these plants were pollinated - the offspring suddenly had callosum-like flowers. My idea was that pollen from P. thailandense was still present on the "pollination stick" - this plant had been pollinated just before...?
In any case, two of the P. superbiens plants have now been pollinated together - let's wait for the result.
A few pictures of it can be found here:
https://paphs.de/en/blog/das-echte-paph-superbiens-2
more than 10 years ago about 150 plants were imported to Germany from Sumatra as P. x frankeanum.
When the first plants from it flowered, Holger Perner identified these plants as true P. superbiens. 15 of these plants flowered for me and an orchid friend - all typical for superbiens.
Two of these plants were pollinated - the offspring suddenly had callosum-like flowers. My idea was that pollen from P. thailandense was still present on the "pollination stick" - this plant had been pollinated just before...?
In any case, two of the P. superbiens plants have now been pollinated together - let's wait for the result.
A few pictures of it can be found here:
https://paphs.de/en/blog/das-echte-paph-superbiens-2
