US MAN convicted of Orchid smuggling
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ehanes7612
Well-Known Member
did some more research on this...apparently a Fish and Wildlife bust ...they also conducted a sting (bought plants from him w/out proper documents)..charged him with perjury also.....i wonder what other evidence they had on him...hard to tell what his intentions were from what is on the internet...
N
nikv
Guest
Mr Norris used to sell a lot of plants on eBay back in the day. I occasionally bought plants from him, but nothing exotic or rare. From what I've read, he's out of prison and living a quiet life now in retirement. He's also not into orchids anymore. The whole ordeal left him a changed man. All of my correspondence with him (emails) were polite and cordial. He seemed like a really nice man.
ehanes7612
Well-Known Member
found this investigative piece
http://www.heritage.org/research/re...-smuggler-a-case-study-in-overcriminalization
"Norris was singled out because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. As controversy roared over the kovachii and prosecutors were gunning for a high-profile conviction to tamp down sales in truly rare and endangered plants, Norris bragged that he would soon have the extraordinary flower in stock."
http://www.heritage.org/research/re...-smuggler-a-case-study-in-overcriminalization
"Norris was singled out because he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. As controversy roared over the kovachii and prosecutors were gunning for a high-profile conviction to tamp down sales in truly rare and endangered plants, Norris bragged that he would soon have the extraordinary flower in stock."
D
Darin
Guest
George was an incredibly nice man. On the day he was busted, I was supposed to go to his house to pick up a Bulbophyllum gigantea (If I remember correct). When I pulled up there were several pilice cars and unmarked cars out front. A badged individual came to my car window when I pulled into the drive and said "You dont want to be here." Put the car in reverse and left.
Needless to say, it was an absolute shame that the govt would go after those of relative innocence while they let murderers go after a year or two in jail.
Needless to say, it was an absolute shame that the govt would go after those of relative innocence while they let murderers go after a year or two in jail.
E
Eric Muehlbauer
Guest
There are many posts about this story here. I know George. Over 10 years now...while we have never met, I still correspond with him. He had an orchid importing business, mostly stuff from South America. Even though he occasionally carried phrags, he was not into them that much and usually had other species. George is a character...really played up the "Texas redneck" character, and got into lots of online scraps with many people. Like most online blowhards, he was totally harmless (and actually a nice guy, with genuine appreciation for people and character). But when you make online enemies, some may act as real enemies. George, at one point, made a claim that he would be able to probably get kovachii...legally. Of course, this was before it was officially released. He implied that he would be one of, if not the first to carry it. Well, to make a long story short, someone...a prior customer, reported George. The USFW tracked his emails and investigated him. What he was actually nailed for...and he freely admits to this...was telling his supplier to send a shipment to Miami, where he felt customs were more lenient, and to label the phrags in the shipment (mostly pearcei...and all legally propagated) as Maxillarias, to speed them through. The rest is in the story. Basically, they were holding the jail sentence against him so that he would tell the USFW about other, more serious importation offenses. He refused. He went to jail. He is now out, avoiding any connection to orchids.
What George did was wrong. He acknowledges this and accepts all blame. But sending a 65 year old man with no priors and serious health problems to jail for a year?
What George did was wrong. He acknowledges this and accepts all blame. But sending a 65 year old man with no priors and serious health problems to jail for a year?
ehanes7612
Well-Known Member
according to that investigative piece posted a link...the reporter draws a connection to the govt putting pressure on its agencies to show they were living up to their agreements over CITES...and Peru's need to avenge loss of naming a highly valued species...politics as usual ..unfortunate
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biothanasis
Guest
I never understood such governmental tactics!!! And although I am young, I am completely bored of this lifestyle!!!
Have we sold all other aspects of life and we are occupied with the enfocement of plants legislation??? There are milions of people living among us that are on the streets and they bearely eat a bite during the day! Millions of people are being brain-washed to overconsume and eat-eat-eat...! People cannot find jobs, ethics are downhill in every human society, humanity bonds are looser than ever before and all we need to do is protect the environment???
How?? By trying to put an end to something although forcing everything else in the exact opposite direction?? Isn't this selfcanseling??? I think we need to change the bases of our society modeling and focus on other aspects!! To add values and ethics first, not laws and legislations (alone)! If the former are implemented by all, then the latter might not be necessary...
And to add something more...!! What is legal and what illegal eventually??? Who is the expert to say for sure what can get a documentation and what not??? Biology learns us that only a small fragment of such issues can be 99% sure. Everything else is unknown or undefined. And to put is in other words, why protect a small population of endangered mice species when millions of mice die in laboratories every year?
What is the purpose of the laws?? Since everything is connected to money-collection nothing is clear! But let's not forget, that we (not only the potical persons) are responsible for the current cituation in every society...! And there is a saying about this: As you have made your bed, so you will lie on it...!
Have we sold all other aspects of life and we are occupied with the enfocement of plants legislation??? There are milions of people living among us that are on the streets and they bearely eat a bite during the day! Millions of people are being brain-washed to overconsume and eat-eat-eat...! People cannot find jobs, ethics are downhill in every human society, humanity bonds are looser than ever before and all we need to do is protect the environment???
How?? By trying to put an end to something although forcing everything else in the exact opposite direction?? Isn't this selfcanseling??? I think we need to change the bases of our society modeling and focus on other aspects!! To add values and ethics first, not laws and legislations (alone)! If the former are implemented by all, then the latter might not be necessary...
And to add something more...!! What is legal and what illegal eventually??? Who is the expert to say for sure what can get a documentation and what not??? Biology learns us that only a small fragment of such issues can be 99% sure. Everything else is unknown or undefined. And to put is in other words, why protect a small population of endangered mice species when millions of mice die in laboratories every year?
What is the purpose of the laws?? Since everything is connected to money-collection nothing is clear! But let's not forget, that we (not only the potical persons) are responsible for the current cituation in every society...! And there is a saying about this: As you have made your bed, so you will lie on it...!
Leo Schordje
wilted blossom
The Economist article is not about orchid smuggling, but rather about the issue of over-criminalization of legal offenses. I am in agreement that this is a serious problem with the US legal system, and this over-criminalization is is used selectively with people to scare others into compliance.
Eric and Darin are correct about George. Part of Norris' problem was his constant political jabs at US Fish and Wildlife about CITES. He did this in his on line posts and in his printed price lists and newsletters. He was very public about his contempt for USFWS and he put it in print. I suspect he was made a target for this reason. His sentance has been pointed to a number of times as a classic example of over-criminalization and excessive sentancing. I feel for the guy and hope his remaining years are peaceful. There is nothing that can be done to get him the time back. I am disappointed that the current batch of Demeocrats in power now are completely deaf to pleas to address the issue of over criminalization and excessive sentancing in non-violent crimes.
One on one George Norris is a great guy, but many times he really evoked the ire of quite a number of people, with his on-line neo-con right wing political rants. I wish him well, and hope all of my fellow slipper talkers take to heart that this issue of over-criminalization of non-violent crimes and breaking of legal regulations to be a serious issue worth talking to your friends and neighbors about. We need to get a grass roots buzz going about this issue because it does affect us all, if not directly, it affects friends and family. (be concerned especially if you grow any species orchids). Politicians will only react when they get pressure from multiple sources, and orchid growers alone are not enough of a lobby to pressure political change. Take on the greater issue, as over-criminalization applies to everything from parking tickets to dog walking, business licensing and importing anything. And of course there is the whole "War on Drugs" issue, which is trying to solve a complex social issue with a simple "Lock 'em all up" approach. So give it some thought then write your local and national political representative. In Chicago a simple parking ticket for over staying at a meter starts at $75 and if you don't pay before a hearing, it goes up to $150. This is the type of outrageous excessive fines that are part of the over-criminalization issue.
Thanks for the initial post and article to bring this issue up.
Eric and Darin are correct about George. Part of Norris' problem was his constant political jabs at US Fish and Wildlife about CITES. He did this in his on line posts and in his printed price lists and newsletters. He was very public about his contempt for USFWS and he put it in print. I suspect he was made a target for this reason. His sentance has been pointed to a number of times as a classic example of over-criminalization and excessive sentancing. I feel for the guy and hope his remaining years are peaceful. There is nothing that can be done to get him the time back. I am disappointed that the current batch of Demeocrats in power now are completely deaf to pleas to address the issue of over criminalization and excessive sentancing in non-violent crimes.
One on one George Norris is a great guy, but many times he really evoked the ire of quite a number of people, with his on-line neo-con right wing political rants. I wish him well, and hope all of my fellow slipper talkers take to heart that this issue of over-criminalization of non-violent crimes and breaking of legal regulations to be a serious issue worth talking to your friends and neighbors about. We need to get a grass roots buzz going about this issue because it does affect us all, if not directly, it affects friends and family. (be concerned especially if you grow any species orchids). Politicians will only react when they get pressure from multiple sources, and orchid growers alone are not enough of a lobby to pressure political change. Take on the greater issue, as over-criminalization applies to everything from parking tickets to dog walking, business licensing and importing anything. And of course there is the whole "War on Drugs" issue, which is trying to solve a complex social issue with a simple "Lock 'em all up" approach. So give it some thought then write your local and national political representative. In Chicago a simple parking ticket for over staying at a meter starts at $75 and if you don't pay before a hearing, it goes up to $150. This is the type of outrageous excessive fines that are part of the over-criminalization issue.
Thanks for the initial post and article to bring this issue up.
Really!? I tend to feel it has affected me directly!!!
KyushuCalanthe
Just call me Tom
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But is it really surprising from a nation that has found it necessary to incarcerate more than 3% of its population? It is hard to believe that Americans are that bad. Funny, Mother Russia is in the #2 slot. Hmm...
SlipperFan
Addicted
This country is so polarized, I doubt we can advance on any social issue anytime soon.
The Republicans have everybody so scared with their "Lock 'em up" solution for every little thing. The Democrats are so afraid to do anything because the electorate have been brain-washed by conservatives on every issue from health-care to money for education vs. incarceration. On the eve of mid-term elections, I don't see a lot of hope for this country to remain the great land of opportunity and innovation it has become known for.
Just try to change people's minds to put money into education instead of incarceration.
Leo Schordje
wilted blossom
We can actually do something, and we can do it next week. No matter how futile it may feel, we need to get out and vote. Most races are won or lost by margins less than 5%. This means your vote may be more important than you might feel. Even more important, try to convince 5 like minded friends to also get out and vote, those who might have stayed away from the poles because "my vote won't matter". And if you get each of them to convince some of their freinds to get out and vote, it can snowball into a high voter turn out race. Staying away from the poles favors the extreemists.
Actually the races to pay the most attention to are the local races. twice now in the last 10 years, the difference between who became mayor of my town of 12,000 people was less than 10 votes. One year the canditate won by 5 votes. So don't stay home because it won't matter. It will, especially the more local the race is. Try to do your homework this week and then get out and excercise your rights.
Actually the races to pay the most attention to are the local races. twice now in the last 10 years, the difference between who became mayor of my town of 12,000 people was less than 10 votes. One year the canditate won by 5 votes. So don't stay home because it won't matter. It will, especially the more local the race is. Try to do your homework this week and then get out and excercise your rights.
B
biothanasis
Guest
Leo I like the way you put your thought into words... I agree with your opinion more or less....! The way we act in this matter is very similar with littering (at least here anyway...) When I ask people you drop down the package of their cigaretes or their chewing gum, why don't you put it in the garbage bin??? Theiy answer like there are not to blame like this: Is the planet going to be saved from pollytion from me??? or Am I the only one who does this and I am supposed to do it the "right" way??
I think that the way we live our lives is our example to the others and not what we say. So, it might be somehow better to say that we are going to vote, for example, and if we are asked why, we could say the reasons, but if we try to convince somebody, most of the times people react otherwise. People do not want to be pussed, although they always need a "boogie-man" to evolve (in thoughts, actions etc)...!!! But then again if we do not try then we won't know what will happen...
I agree with your opinion more or less....! The way we act in this matter is very similar with littering (at least here anyway...) When I ask people you drop down the package of their cigaretes or their chewing gum, why don't you put it in the garbage bin??? Theiy answer like there are not to blame like this: Is the planet going to be saved from pollytion from me??? or Am I the only one who does this and I am supposed to do it the "right" way?? I think that the way we live our lives is our example to the others and not what we say. So, it might be somehow better to say that we are going to vote, for example, and if we are asked why, we could say the reasons, but if we try to convince somebody, most of the times people react otherwise. People do not want to be pussed, although they always need a "boogie-man" to evolve (in thoughts, actions etc)...!!! But then again if we do not try then we won't know what will happen...
emydura
Well-Known Member
You nailed it there Leo. The voluntary voting system doesn't help the US. It just favours the extreme elements which doesn't really represent middle America. But then if middle America is not going to vote who can blame political parties for pursuing the extreme vote. They are just trying to get elected.
In Australia voting is compulsory, so at least 95% of the eligible population votes. So extreme groups have little influence. The main problem is the two major parties are so desperate to win the middle ground they have become indistinguishable. It is hard to tell them apart.
David
How does Aus. enforce compulsory voting?
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goldenrose
Guest
Good question Eric, after the polls close isn't it too late? then what?
Candace
Well-Known Member
We should make it compulsory by making anyone who doesn't vote have to show up for jury duty! ;>
