What is the best roth cross?

[Justin]

these are the crosses im looking at.

Paph. rothschildianum x sib ('Knight Sunshine' SM/JOGA x 'Tarantula' GM/JGP)​

Paph. rothschildianum x sib ('World Cup' SM/JOGA x 'Raptor' GM/JOGA)​

Paph. rothschildianum x sib ('New Horizon' FCC/AOS x 'Raptor' GM/JOGA)​

Paph. rothschildianum x sib ('Fine Five' x 'Atticus' AM/AOS, B/WOC)​

Paph. rothschildianum x sib ('Black Beauty' x 'Giant Wings' GM/WOC)​

You have gotten some very excellent advice in this thread. As all have mentioned, it is just a numbers game. In any given cross a few will be poor, many will be good, and another few will be excellent. So either buy as many plants as you can afford and have room & time to grow, or purchase a select bloomed plant.

You will pay one way or another, in either time and resources, or in cost to buy a select plant.

From your list the only one I would avoid is New Horizon x Raptor. Fine Five x Atticus has had some awarded from it so I would go for this, along with the Tarantula cross.

In the US, buy from a reputable seller like Orchid Inn (act quickly), Paph Paradise, or Krull Smith.

 

[SelectOrchids]

You have gotten some very excellent advice in this thread. As all have mentioned, it is just a numbers game. In any given cross a few will be poor, many will be good, and another few will be excellent. So either buy as many plants as you can afford and have room & time to grow, or purchase a select bloomed plant.

You will pay one way or another, in either time and resources, or in cost to buy a select plant.

From your list the only one I would avoid is New Horizon x Raptor. Fine Five x Atticus has had some awarded from it so I would go for this, along with the Tarantula cross.

In the US, buy from a reputable seller like Orchid Inn (act quickly), Paph Paradise, or Krull Smith.

I would go definitely for Paph Paradise and Krull Smith ( I did not see they had roth on offer, my mistake...) to be safe in the US.

A lot of the Orchid Inn rothschildianum seedlings are blooming in Europe since 1-2 years, and to say the least, their owners are not happy boys... I had to bloom a few for a friend as well... and let's say politely that they did not look like their parents at all.

I do know as well that a division of one of my roth NBS ended up in the US, and a couple months later, flasks with it as a parent were offered... Some things never change...

Leo x New Horizon, even posted here, or the Raptor crosses have nothing in common with the supposed parents.

The only one that had overall very good plants blooming out of it, for weird reasons, was Sam's Choice x MM Best a long time ago. That's it.

For Fine Five x Atticus, despite the claim that 2 were awarded in Germany, including Anja, the ones awarded in Germany were not from that cross, but directly from the Orchid Zone...

When chosing roths, you can go on Facebook, and check what bloomed from this specific grex, or with those parents, it gives already an idea whether you should buy or not...

 

[Ozpaph]

Could it be that some roths just arent good parents?

 

[Tony]

Could it be that some roths just arent good parents?

Sloppiness and/or dishonesty somewhere in the supply chain is a much easier to believe argument than a plant with top tier genetics somehow not passing those genes along. Selective breeding wouldn't work if inheritance was THAT random.

 

[Linus_Cello]

Could it be that some roths just arent good parents?

Maybe. I’m guessing Ozpath was thinking intra-specific. But could we also determine if certain Roths would be better parents based on inter-specific crosses?

 

[spujr]

I wonder how many of the "desirable " traits in roths are controlled by recessive genes. Generally speaking most complex traits are additive in nature so wouldn't explain why some crises don't yield good progeny.

 

[SelectOrchids]

Statistically it is impossible that there are 'bad parents'. If out of 20-30 plants, absolutely none looks like any of its parents, then it is a fraud, not a genetic story...

Furthermore, when a couple different crosses, with different parents, look identically bad when they bloom, then it means the different crosses are not from the different parents, but a batch of plants of an identical cross, sold with various names on the tags.

I have seen a lot of things in the past, including very famous Neofinetia sellers going to an industrial farm in South Korea, on a small town opposite an island, buying neofinetia NoID and putting a hell of a lot of various names on them. The farm there had many, many neofinetia and hybrids of it, including many specimen plants, but none with a pedigree. The Japanese traders arranged that easily.

I will not mention as well some Dutch traded pot plant complex Paphiopedilum that ended up in Japan at the Tokyo Dome with pedigree, as a courtesy... Some were awardable for sure in it, that's not the question, but they had no pedigree or whatsoever.

 

[Royal Rea]

I look at the breeding results as a bell curve, the FCC one end and the ordinary rubbish the other. I guess if the bell curve is skewed to the right (fcc quality progeny) those breeding plants are great parents together, and if the results are skewed to the left -really poor quality, that parent combination regardless of what high-quality awards they have is not a good match. With roth breeding it, unfortunately, takes a long time, to see the results.

 

[Linus_Cello]

With roth breeding it, unfortunately, takes a long time, to see the results.

So would an inter-specific cross, like st swithin, help determine possible better Roth parents faster?

 

[Theodoreorchidking]

Exciting news!!! So I went with orchid inn. Sam, as always, was great and helped me through email. We got a bit mixed up, 40 emails back and forth plus some, but got it all ironed out. Down below is what I got!!!
Paph. Prince Edward of York (rothschildianum 'Dark Star' x sanderianum 'Lady in Red')
Paph. rothschildianum x sib ('Knight Sunshine' SM/JOGA x 'Tarantula' GM/JGP). [Im super excited about this one!!!] Let's just hope I can bloom it .
Finally, I got a mystery Taiwanese roth cross that was in his private collection for breeding.

If anyone has a picture of the blooms from the tarantula cross I would love to see it, or any others.

 

[Duck Slipper]

I have your PEOY cross, don’t know if I posted a pic on ST or not…do a search for Dark Star x Lady in Red and I’m sure someone has some pics on here.
Your Tarantula cross should be a good one and post a pic when it blooms.
Your Taiwanese cross sounds interesting, and it should be in bloom now if he used it for breeding in the past. Post a pic of it also!!
Good luck Theodore , I think you’ve got it!!
Slipperitis!

 

[SelectOrchids]

I look at the breeding results as a bell curve, the FCC one end and the ordinary rubbish the other. I guess if the bell curve is skewed to the right (fcc quality progeny) those breeding plants are great parents together, and if the results are skewed to the left -really poor quality, that parent combination regardless of what high-quality awards they have is not a good match. With roth breeding it, unfortunately, takes a long time, to see the results.

That's not quite true in the case of roths. Put it simply, a lot of roth plants on the market are not what they are supposed to be, at least their parents, that's why they flower as rubbish. Let's say you buy a Paphiopedilum micranthum sib cross, and you bloom an insigne. You won't think it is because it is of the genetic diversity...

Roths do exist in breeding groups and colonies, their leaf type, flowers, are different... After that it is a matter of statistics, but what does not exist in the parents ( bleached out flowers, narrow dorsals, etc...), cannot exist in the progeny, as simple as that. What exists in the parent however must appear in the progeny, some will have some of each parent desirable characteristics, some all. But, statistically, you cannot bloom 10 bad rothschildianum completely different from either parent out of a single cross...

The story that they improve athe 2nd or 3rd bloom is propagated as well by those who sell plants with fake pedigree. It is not true either, but it buys some more time... The first bloom of a roth seedling already gives some characteristics. They can improve for sure on subsequent bloomings, but very narrow dorsal, pale flowers won't become dark red and a massive dorsal on the next flowering, that is for sure...

Recently too there were some photos of Sunlight Sky Roths. The 'best' of that hybrid looks like a gigantic rothschildianum, and that's what some nurseries in Taiwan are simply doing. The fun being that some photos do not have the decency to remove all the Sunlight Sky Roths on the background, where we can see some roth alike, and some more 'hybrid looking' ones,

 

[Tony]

I bloomed a Dark Star x Lady in Red this year, something damaged the stem during development but I was happy with the quality of the unaffected flower.

Paph Season 2023

 

[Theodoreorchidking]

If I was to get a flask of roth or sands how long would that take to flower each?

 

[tnyr5]

You aren't going to do it in 3 years like Xavier, but if you're willing to baby them, as in create a growspace specifically built to grow roths, you should easily bloom some in 4-4.5 years, and a majority the year after.

 

[Paph Paradise]

If I was to get a flask of roth or sands how long would that take to flower each?

It takes us about 5 to 6 years to get roths to bloom from flask in Northern California. I'm sure this winter didn't help much as things are just now 'waking up' in the nursery. We have two (2), count 'em, TWO roths in spike right now. Out of 50+ blooming size plants. We needed the rain but cold + gloomy = unhappy roths.

Dave

 

[Justin]

It tskes 10 years minimum for me, but I don't have a greenhouse or specialized tent. They just grow in the house, AC in the summer, dry air & cold in the winter.

 

[Theodoreorchidking]

Ok, now it is time to be a bit jealous!!! This is my hall from orchid inn. I also got an angraecum from Ecuagenera.
1.Paph roth "sunlight lion" x paph roth "Kuang Hua Village" this is about 2.5 feet across and is in spike!!!
2. Paph roth (Knight sunshine x Tarantual) A little over 2 feet across
3.Paph Prince Edward of York 2.5 feet across plus two new growths
4. Paph Randy Booth (Lady Isabel 'Gigantic' x randsii 'Jupiter') I got this for free from Sam
5. Angraecum Lemforde White Beauty x Angraecum sesquipedale This one is from ecuagenera I am a bit disappointed with it but the roots seem good


Prince Edwar of York

 

[Duck Slipper]

Good job Theodore!
Looks like your Roth, if I read the tag right had a 6.5 cm. dorsal in a past blooming. Maybe a 25 cm. NS.? Maybe the plant is named 'Lion King'... Does Sam have anything written on the back of the tag? It also looks like it has a big fat bud. Post pics. when it opens.
Good luck growing!

 

[Theodoreorchidking]

Good job Theodore!



Looks like your Roth, if I read the tag right had a 6.5 cm. dorsal in a past blooming. Maybe a 25 cm. NS.? Maybe the plant is named 'Lion King'... Does Sam have anything written on the back of the tag? It also looks like it has a big fat bud. Post pics. when it opens.



Good luck growing!