Yellowing Phrag. Leaves

[nicoleborn68]

Hello! I'm hoping someone might be able to help with this issue I have been having with one of my phrags, Phrag. Scarlet O'Hara. The lower leaves are yellowing and dropping off. There doesn't appear to be any black or brown spots, the leaf affected gets a lighter, starts getting a yellow tinge, until it turns completely yellow, and dies. I'll list details below, please let me know if there's anything else that would be helpful to know.

-Grown indoors, year round in a mostly enclosed, clear structure. I leave the door to it propped open, and there's a fan for air movement. Structure is about 3ftx2ft.
-The light I am using is Spider Farmer's SF1000 LED Grow Light, Dimmable, at 30% power. 12 hours of light a day. Unfortunately the version I have is the older version and I'm not sure if the specifications are the same as the current one on their website, so if more info is needed on this, I'll have to do some digging to figure it out.
-Minimum humidity is about 53%, average 60%, highest has been about 70% (minimum humidity occurs typically at night).
-Minimum temperature is 63 degrees F, average is 69 degrees F, and highest is 79.9. (minimum temp occurs for a short period of time during the night, highest temp short period of time during the day).
-I water with distilled water, always. Was using the MSU Fertilizer for RO/Distilled Water all this year until a couple weeks ago, when I switched to Green Jungle. Approximately 2x a month. One of my thoughts is that perhaps I am under fertilizing? However, the other phrags I have are not having the same issue. I do have crushed oyster shells and I saw via some of threads that some growers will apply a top dressing, but I haven't tried that yet. I've included photos of the fertilizer values.
-All of my phrags are growing in potting media of mainly Grodan Grow Cubes, and perlite. I can't say I've ever gone to water them and thought, "oh this is dry." So I feel I am maintaining adequate moisture, not letting them dry out. I typically let my phrags. sit in just enough distilled water to fill the small saucer underneath them, and change the water at least twice a week.
-Was recently repotted in April 2023.

The 3rd photo is the MSU fertilizer, 4th photo with the two values is Green Jungle. Thank you to anyone who can offer some insight!

 

[big923cattleya]

Not all Phrags like that much moisture. Besseae and schlimii do, maybe Phrag. Pearcei does too, species and hybrids.
But then again, every talk I have heard seems to promote a different cultural regime for Caudatum and Kovachii stuff. Species and hybrids of these two species, and others, like to dry out a bit more. Not “bone dry” but not as moist as besseae, Schlimii, and d’alessandroi plants.
How often do you repot them?
How often do you fertilize and with what?
Seedling or babies do not require as much.

 

[terryros]

My Phrags almost always shed a bottom leaf or two as they mature. Your remaining leaves look good. I used a mix of Hydroton and about 20% Grodan rock wool cubes for a year with Phrags including a top layer of the cubes and they grew reasonably well. However, I did not like the growth of cyanobacteria (what some call blue/green algae) that grew on the top. With translucent pots you also get cyanobacteria growth on the side walls. This may be mostly unsightly, but I think it can interfere with some air movement. For the last 8 months I am growing the Phrags in only Hydroton, with fairly frequent watering and daily top misting. Phrags need good air at the roots along with good moisture and this requires a pot medium and watering routine that gets both.

 

[nicoleborn68]

Not all Phrags like that much moisture. Besseae and schlimii do, maybe Phrag. Pearcei does too, species and hybrids.
But then again, every talk I have heard seems to promote a different cultural regime for Caudatum and Kovachii stuff. Species and hybrids of these two species, and others, like to dry out a bit more. Not “bone dry” but not as moist as besseae, Schlimii, and d’alessandroi plants.
How often do you repot them?
How often do you fertilize and with what?
Seedling or babies do not require as much.

Hello! This last time was the only repot that I've done, mainly because I've really only had them all about a year. I use the MSU fertilizer for RO water, but, recently switched to Green Jungle, fertilizing approximately twice a month.

 

[nicoleborn68]

My Phrags almost always shed a bottom leaf or two as they mature. Your remaining leaves look good. I used a mix of Hydroton and about 20% Grodan rock wool cubes for a year with Phrags including a top layer of the cubes and they grew reasonably well. However, I did not like the growth of cyanobacteria (what some call blue/green algae) that grew on the top. With translucent pots you also get cyanobacteria growth on the side walls. This may be mostly unsightly, but I think it can interfere with some air movement. For the last 8 months I am growing the Phrags in only Hydroton, with fairly frequent watering and daily top misting. Phrags need good air at the roots along with good moisture and this requires a pot medium and watering routine that gets both.

I think this is probably the third leaf that has turned yellow. Based on what you are saying, perhaps I should repot in a solid pot...

 

[terryros]

I think this is probably the third leaf that has turned yellow. Based on what you are saying, perhaps I should repot in a solid pot...

I used translucent Rand Aircone pots for some years and they are excellent pots for drainage. I used them because I wanted to see the root growth. I no longer need to see that to know if my plants are growing well so I decided to get rid of the cyanobacteria on the inside of the pot. I am currently using Active Aqua square pots. I use black ones for 5 inch square and white ones for 6 inch, 7 inch, and 9 inch square. They are taller than they are wide and the increased height is probably good for several things. They have excellent drainage. Square pots also use your space a little more efficiently than round pots. Cyanobacteria does not grow on Hydroton, at least as I am misting the surface most days. A little true moss can grow on Hydroton and I don’t find this objectionable compared to the cyanobacteria.

 

[Heather]

Often, I find a new growth or root poking through the dying leaf, which can also be the cause, and not a bad outcome!

 

[big923cattleya]

There is one draw back I find with square pots and it is why in all my years of growing I do not use them.
When we arrange our plants we often discover that our first major issue is- we run out of space!!! Oh no!! Square pots fit more snuggly together in our growing areas. This allows us to fit in another orchid or two. Hooray!! Seems like a good idea.
But I find square pots to be a issue. A seriously bad issue for me. Being an inside winter grower, I always, always, always have a fan circulating in the collection. Round pots do not allow me to cram plants together providing my plants better air movement, better drying, better disease prevention.
I am not pleased with pots that have greater depth as well. So many times that greater depth provides an overly moist and soggy mess that my roots do not inhabit.
But please please please, decide for yourselves because everyone grows in a different situation. I am merely offering points or a position that I have observed.

 

[terryros]

There is one draw back I find with square pots and it is why in all my years of growing I do not use them.
When we arrange our plants we often discover that our first major issue is- we run out of space!!! Oh no!! Square pots fit more snuggly together in our growing areas. This allows us to fit in another orchid or two. Hooray!! Seems like a good idea.
But I find square pots to be a issue. A seriously bad issue for me. Being an inside winter grower, I always, always, always have a fan circulating in the collection. Round pots do not allow me to cram plants together providing my plants better air movement, better drying, better disease prevention.
I am not pleased with pots that have greater depth as well. So many times that greater depth provides an overly moist and soggy mess that my roots do not inhabit.
But please please please, decide for yourselves because everyone grows in a different situation. I am merely offering points or a position that I have observed.

You are right, different pluses and minuses. I do not use a fan in my room, other than a very mild one that is on when my floor level heater might be on, which is not that much. I do have an HVAC duct that brings in heated or cooled air when the system turns on for the house. I do not have any rot, fungal disease, etc. But, I think it is because I am using LECA as a potting medium, so I always have rapid drainage of the root zone. The taller pot is a benefit with LECA because you want to delay the complete drying out of the media. My daily misting of the top layer of LECA and roots also helps. I think my conditions are getting very close to semi-hydro.

 

[nicoleborn68]

There is one draw back I find with square pots and it is why in all my years of growing I do not use them.
When we arrange our plants we often discover that our first major issue is- we run out of space!!! Oh no!! Square pots fit more snuggly together in our growing areas. This allows us to fit in another orchid or two. Hooray!! Seems like a good idea.
But I find square pots to be a issue. A seriously bad issue for me. Being an inside winter grower, I always, always, always have a fan circulating in the collection. Round pots do not allow me to cram plants together providing my plants better air movement, better drying, better disease prevention.
I am not pleased with pots that have greater depth as well. So many times that greater depth provides an overly moist and soggy mess that my roots do not inhabit.
But please please please, decide for yourselves because everyone grows in a different situation. I am merely offering points or a position that I have observed.

You know, I never would have thought of this as potentially being an issue, but, what you are saying makes sense!

 

[big923cattleya]

Well thanks but I am just offering my personal observations.
If something doesn’t grow just right, flower just right or look to be nice and healthy, it causes me to think. What am I doing wrong? What could I do better? If anything.
Plain and simple, I just try to share my experiences. I try very hard to offer suggestions and leave it to each reader to decide.

 

[Duck Slipper]

Just scratching the top…I don’t think anything is wrong. Certainly not bad wrong. Sometimes plants “Eat a leaf”!
Sometimes maybe you bought a runt, that might not grow really well anywhere! I’ve got some paphs and phrags that don’t thrive and quite a few that do quite well…

 

[PeteM]

Hi and welcome to the forum, I wanted to add a few points I was thinking about over approaching this issue. From your description, you are doing many things correct with temps, air, light, water and fert. Especially if your other phrags are doing well. As others have said, take this feedback and make it your own, I think we all try to help each other troubleshoot but we can only provide info from our own growing experiences and conditions.. everyone’s conditions and opinions are different but I still feel it’s helpful to provide a lot of detail in the thought process that I would personally use to troubleshoot if the plant was my own. This is the beauty of the forum and research in general.. learning and building from others work.

Water- I’ve got no experience with distilled water. I use RO water myself and find that constantly watering with RO straight (no additional additives) will cause my leaves to yellow out on all my orchids. RO is stripped of all salts and minerals, and has an adverse impact on your plants if you do not add a little bit of buffer back into the water. I flush my phrags every other day with straight RO, usually in the evenings to cool the roots and keep the media wet, but I always pre water daily sometime during the day with a diluted 25-50ppm spray of fert/ RO mix. More ppm in the summer.

Natural senescence cycle- like others, about this time of year I have many phrags putting out new leaves and spikes. The older leaves start to yellow and undergo leaf senescence as the plant shifts its resources to the lead growth. This is normal, but should not extend past the bottom few leaves. The plant in your picture looks really well grown. The newest leaves look to be a good color and I don’t see any browning of the tips. Because of this I believe your salt levels are good and roots seem to be functioning properly. To add a bit more chlorophyll production into the leaves and give them a greener appearance I would recommend experimenting with Epsom salts. I usually provide all my orchids with 1/2 tbs per gallon, in a spray once every two weeks in the summer and once a month in the winter. This varies depending on the temps, warmer temps and the application frequency increases. I find this helps tremendously with RO water use. I believe it’s almost a necessity when using RO especially in the summer for me.

Moss- for me moss growing on the top of the media like in your picture is a good sign. I have had a few phrags where once the moss establishes, the plants respond with stronger growth of roots and leaves. I think you are on the right track with water and fert, I use the moss as a marker to gauge how well the water / fert culture is.

Grodan- I use this product solely for phrags and phals. However, I find the grodan chunks are much better at creating air in the center of the pot than the smaller cubes. I’ve switched over to the chunks and do not use the cubes anymore. This provides a bit more air at the roots.

Pot- I echo the sentiment of others. Air in the root zone is critical, especially for phrags that stay constantly wet. I would experiment with plastic net pots, phrags roots do not wander out of the grodan easily. If the roots hit dry air they will turn right back into the moisture. Don’t be afraid to try a net pot. I personally think that that pot you currently have it in is too small. If that was my plant in my conditions I would bump it up to a larger pot with more air, keeping the moss you have grow already to seed the new media.

Light / temps- the only other thing that I’ve seen yellow out my phrags are too much light In combination with heat. Based on your description I don’t think this is an issue. However, it never hurts to pull back on the light. This is the easiest and less invasive thing you could try first to see if the problem corrects itself.. just move the plant a little bit away from the light source. I’m constantly scooting my phrags away from the led light, in my experience the young ones yellow very easily when given too much exposure. All my phrags are at the edge of my light source footprint, edge of the table or on the concrete floor to the side of the tables. Day length, I hover around 12 hrs of light a day as well but I’m more of 11:30-11:45. Light intensity and length of exposure increases the integral of light incident on the plant over the day. Even if you have a lower light intensity, if you expose a plant for too long, this could also cause the plant to stress and yellow in my experience. In the past I would run my collection for 12-14hrs, fluctuating based on the seasons. Once I cut back on the day-length, the overall health of the collection improved.

Things to think about. Good luck troubleshooting. That’s a really nice phrag and looking forward to seeing it bloom on here one day.

 

[nicoleborn68]

Hi and welcome to the forum, I wanted to add a few points I was thinking about over approaching this issue. From your description, you are doing many things correct with temps, air, light, water and fert. Especially if your other phrags are doing well. As others have said, take this feedback and make it your own, I think we all try to help each other troubleshoot but we can only provide info from our own growing experiences and conditions.. everyone’s conditions and opinions are different but I still feel it’s helpful to provide a lot of detail in the thought process that I would personally use to troubleshoot if the plant was my own. This is the beauty of the forum and research in general.. learning and building from others work.

Water- I’ve got no experience with distilled water. I use RO water myself and find that constantly watering with RO straight (no additional additives) will cause my leaves to yellow out on all my orchids. RO is stripped of all salts and minerals, and has an adverse impact on your plants if you do not add a little bit of buffer back into the water. I flush my phrags every other day with straight RO, usually in the evenings to cool the roots and keep the media wet, but I always pre water daily sometime during the day with a diluted 25-50ppm spray of fert/ RO mix. More ppm in the summer.

Natural senescence cycle- like others, about this time of year I have many phrags putting out new leaves and spikes. The older leaves start to yellow and undergo leaf senescence as the plant shifts its resources to the lead growth. This is normal, but should not extend past the bottom few leaves. The plant in your picture looks really well grown. The newest leaves look to be a good color and I don’t see any browning of the tips. Because of this I believe your salt levels are good and roots seem to be functioning properly. To add a bit more chlorophyll production into the leaves and give them a greener appearance I would recommend experimenting with Epsom salts. I usually provide all my orchids with 1/2 tbs per gallon, in a spray once every two weeks in the summer and once a month in the winter. This varies depending on the temps, warmer temps and the application frequency increases. I find this helps tremendously with RO water use. I believe it’s almost a necessity when using RO especially in the summer for me.

Moss- for me moss growing on the top of the media like in your picture is a good sign. I have had a few phrags where once the moss establishes, the plants respond with stronger growth of roots and leaves. I think you are on the right track with water and fert, I use the moss as a marker to gauge how well the water / fert culture is.

Grodan- I use this product solely for phrags and phals. However, I find the grodan chunks are much better at creating air in the center of the pot than the smaller cubes. I’ve switched over to the chunks and do not use the cubes anymore. This provides a bit more air at the roots.

Pot- I echo the sentiment of others. Air in the root zone is critical, especially for phrags that stay constantly wet. I would experiment with plastic net pots, phrags roots do not wander out of the grodan easily. If the roots hit dry air they will turn right back into the moisture. Don’t be afraid to try a net pot. I personally think that that pot you currently have it in is too small. If that was my plant in my conditions I would bump it up to a larger pot with more air, keeping the moss you have grow already to seed the new media.

Light / temps- the only other thing that I’ve seen yellow out my phrags are too much light In combination with heat. Based on your description I don’t think this is an issue. However, it never hurts to pull back on the light. This is the easiest and less invasive thing you could try first to see if the problem corrects itself.. just move the plant a little bit away from the light source. I’m constantly scooting my phrags away from the led light, in my experience the young ones yellow very easily when given too much exposure. All my phrags are at the edge of my light source footprint, edge of the table or on the concrete floor to the side of the tables. Day length, I hover around 12 hrs of light a day as well but I’m more of 11:30-11:45. Light intensity and length of exposure increases the integral of light incident on the plant over the day. Even if you have a lower light intensity, if you expose a plant for too long, this could also cause the plant to stress and yellow in my experience. In the past I would run my collection for 12-14hrs, fluctuating based on the seasons. Once I cut back on the day-length, the overall health of the collection improved.

Things to think about. Good luck troubleshooting. That’s a really nice phrag and looking forward to seeing it bloom on here one day.

Thank you for taking the time to consider and offer suggestions on all of these different factors - it's very helpful! I think I'm going start out by doing a repot today using the moss as you suggested on the top (that's also something I would not have thought to do!). Everyone has been so helpful here offering suggestions and advice! I hope to share this phrag's first bloom on here in the future as well!

 

[Ray]

Nicole. I don't know that it has played a role in this issue, but switch back to the MSU fertilizer, or select another, like K-Lite Orchid/Epiphyte Fertilizer (a derivative of the MSU made by the same folks), or Jack's Classic.

By using a purified water supply and the Green Jungle product, your plants are only getting nitrogen and potassium, and absolutely none of the other minerals they need. Of particular concern are calcium and magnesium.

Most minerals are easily translocation from old-, to new tissue as needed, but calcium, once absorbed, is pretty much "locked in" within the plant tissues, so must be supplied regularly when the plants are growing. Magnesium is a key component in chlorophyll, and while it can be easily moved about within the plant, a steady supply is also necessary.

 

[terryros]

Nicole. I don't know that it has played a role in this issue, but switch back to the MSU fertilizer, or select another, like K-Lite Orchid/Epiphyte Fertilizer (a derivative of the MSU made by the same folks), or Jack's Classic.

By using a purified water supply and the Green Jungle product, your plants are only getting nitrogen and potassium, and absolutely none of the other minerals they need. Of particular concern are calcium and magnesium.

Most minerals are easily translocation from old-, to new tissue as needed, but calcium, once absorbed, is pretty much "locked in" within the plant tissues, so must be supplied regularly when the plants are growing. Magnesium is a key component in chlorophyll, and while it can be easily moved about within the plant, a steady supply is also necessary.

Ray, I am a K-Lite user, but Green Jungle is a complete fertilizer with calcium and magnesium but the bottle labeling, as a liquid, is not required to list all of the components, so it only shows the N and K. Since Green Jungle is what Orchids Limited has used for many years on their own elite collection of plants it obviously works. I have gotten a complete listing of all contents from Jerry Fischer in the past and it contains everything, including trace elements. I used Green Jungle for many years successfully, but I switched to K-Lite mostly because I wanted the convenience of being able to quickly make my own concentrate solutions instead of purchasing the liquid from Orchids Limited. It is also cheaper to make my own with RO water and a digital scale. I use K-Lite over MSU because I think the evidence favoring the lower K and P formula is at least suggestive. The K that is in the Kelpak I use monthly contains K, so it is a bit of a hedge about the low potassium hypothesis.

 

[Ray]

Thanks, Terry. The provided image only show N & K, so that threw me off.

Yeah, Kelpak adds a tiny bit of typical fertilizer ions. If diluted at 1 tablespoon/gallon and applied once a month, it is about equivalent to bumping up the weekly fertilizer application by 3 ppm N, 7 ppm P, and 6 ppm K, making the total 103, 11, and 14 ppm, respectively.

 

[terryros]

Thanks, Terry. The provided image only show N & K, so that threw me off.

Yeah, Kelpak adds a tiny bit of typical fertilizer ions. If diluted at 1 tablespoon/gallon and applied once a month, it is about equivalent to bumping up the weekly fertilizer application by 3 ppm N, 7 ppm P, and 6 ppm K, making the total 103, 11, and 14 ppm, respectively.

Thanks very much for doing that calculation, Ray! I have avoided hunting for the data to do it. Just a bit of a hedge on the P and K.

 

[Heather]

Case in point…just watched this Fritz Schomburg leaf turn brown in a week, pulled it off this morning, fat new root coming thru the base! Kinda hard to see in the photo…

 

[nicoleborn68]

Ray, I am a K-Lite user, but Green Jungle is a complete fertilizer with calcium and magnesium but the bottle labeling, as a liquid, is not required to list all of the components, so it only shows the N and K. Since Green Jungle is what Orchids Limited has used for many years on their own elite collection of plants it obviously works. I have gotten a complete listing of all contents from Jerry Fischer in the past and it contains everything, including trace elements. I used Green Jungle for many years successfully, but I switched to K-Lite mostly because I wanted the convenience of being able to quickly make my own concentrate solutions instead of purchasing the liquid from Orchids Limited. It is also cheaper to make my own with RO water and a digital scale. I use K-Lite over MSU because I think the evidence favoring the lower K and P formula is at least suggestive. The K that is in the Kelpak I use monthly contains K, so it is a bit of a hedge about the low potassium hypothesis.

This is good to know, thank you!