You be the judge

[big923cattleya]

I thought that maybe we could have a little fun here. Maybe we can all learn something. I will present a plant from today’s judging

Here I go again, posting without my notes. I think the name on this was Potinara Pure Love. (I’ll check and edit if need be)
This is Blc. Love Sound x Slc. Seagull’s Apricot. We found 4 awards with images plus an older award from 2004.
The size of this was 6.0cm x 6.0cm. two flowers on a single inflorescence. Previous awards were one at 9.0 x 8.0, two at 8.0 x 8.0 and the fourth was 6.8 x 6.8. One had three flowers on one inflorescences, the others had 2 on one.
One was yellow with a red lip, one had a good deal of red blush to the petals. One was an orange flower with more red in the lip.
Most judges liked the color, most said that the form was pretty nice. One judge commented that the flowers, compared to the other awards, were more crowded. One judge would have liked to have seen more intense red in the lip.
What would you score it????

So what happened? No award. It was passed. Small flower size of 6 x 6 did not help. Crowding was a negative as well.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

The color to me is good as it’s a different variant than other set colors of this grex.
(Score 25/30 points)

The form is exceptionally full as expected from parents. (Score 27/30 points)

Crowding (5/10), floriferousness (6/10), stem (6/10) and small size (6/10).

Total is 75 point HCC for me.

Though small in size and crowded, I would likely nominate it because it has great form… which is what should be encouraged as well in breeding.

 

[NYEric]

Pass

 

[big923cattleya]

Well as it turns out, we were testing out the new proposed scoring sheet so we doubled scored this candidate. The second time using the score sheet that has been used since like, forever.
The result of my scoring was 73 points so Dr. Ee and I were “in range” so to speak. The new sheet score was a 71.5.

I won’t go into details yet about a new score sheet but I am sure Dr. Ee knows about it.

 

[Tony]

Is that the one with points for "Wow Factor?"

 

[big923cattleya]

I love it! Now that’s funny!

 

[PeteM]

The size of this was 6.0cm x 6.0cm.

Thanks for this post. I’m interested in learning more on how plants are scored at judging. Unfortunately, I have no free Saturdays to attend our local judging center meetings. I’ve downloaded and am in review of the judges handbook. But these posts are very helpful to get a sense on how one scoresheets a flower.

The measurements are for total length across the front of the 2 flower petals? And width of the petals?. Wanted to clarify what was being measured.

 

[big923cattleya]

Well there are several measurements taken of each flower and plant as well.
Let us start with the basic ones. When presented with, let’s say, three Cattleyas on a single inflorescence, we take a ruler and quickly decide which flower is the largest. What do we measure quickly? The Natural Spread both horizontally and vertically in centimeters. Most of us bounce centimeters back and forth in our brains and discussions along with inches. But we jot down numbers in centimeters.
Say a flower’s natural spread is 14.5 x 13.8. That means it was 14.5 centimeters wide by 13.8 centimeters vertical. I try not to think of “long” or “tall” when I measure.
Now let me emphasize that is NATURAL SPREAD. That means just as the flower presents itself. We DO NOT press it gently down against the ruler. That changes the natural spread. You want natural spread as it “ naturally sits there on its stem”.
But we can quickly determine which flower is the largest. That is then the flower used and measured in terms of our evaluation. We do NOT combine measurements from other flowers on the spike nor to we bounce back and forth ‘cherry picking’ the biggest ones.

In summary: we ascertain the biggest flower and jot down:
NS natural spread
Dorsal width
Dorsal length
Petal width
Petal length
Lateral sepal width
Lateral sepal length (synsepal for slippers)
Lip width
Lip length (pouch for slippers)
Those measurements become part of our evaluation of how the candidate, the plant in front of us, compares to recent awards for the species or grex.
Absorb this first, ask for clarification, then we can go on if need be.

 

[PeteM]

Well there are several measurements taken of each flower and plant as well.
Let us start with the basic ones. When presented with, let’s say, three Cattleyas on a single inflorescence, we take a ruler and quickly decide which flower is the largest. What do we measure quickly? The Natural Spread both horizontally and vertically in centimeters. Most of us bounce centimeters back and forth in our brains and discussions along with inches. But we jot down numbers in centimeters.
Say a flower’s natural spread is 14.5 x 13.8. That means it was 14.5 centimeters wide by 13.8 centimeters vertical. I try not to think of “long” or “tall” when I measure.
Now let me emphasize that is NATURAL SPREAD. That means just as the flower presents itself. We DO NOT press it gently down against the ruler. That changes the natural spread. You want natural spread as it “ naturally sits there on its stem”.
But we can quickly determine which flower is the largest. That is then the flower used and measured in terms of our evaluation. We do NOT combine measurements from other flowers on the spike nor to we bounce back and forth ‘cherry picking’ the biggest ones.

In summary: we ascertain the biggest flower and jot down:
NS natural spread
Dorsal width
Dorsal length
Petal width
Petal length
Lateral sepal width
Lateral sepal length (synsepal for slippers)
Lip width
Lip length (pouch for slippers)
Those measurements become part of our evaluation of how the candidate, the plant in front of us, compares to recent awards for the species or grex.
Absorb this first, ask for clarification, then we can go on if need be.

Thanks, question on NS. NS horizontal is petal tip to petal tip. The vertical is from the bottom of the lip to the top of the dorsal sepal?

 

[Tom-DE]

In a good mood, I will consider a HCC, nothing more than that....crowed two flowers and muted color on the lip.

A good educational thread, especially for new hobbyists.

 

[big923cattleya]

Well natural spread could be from petal tip to petal tip. Usually a Cattleya is measured in that way because these two spots represent the largest or widest spot. But that is not always the case. In some flowers the sepals might be held a bit wider. That’s when you measure them.
Now vertical natural spread on so many flowers is from the tip of the dorsal to the tip of the pouch.
On a Vanda it is from tip of dorsal to the bottom of a lateral sepal. But realize that those parts do not align themselves in a straight line so I hold my ruler in a downward straight line and use my eye to judge were the bottom of a sepal is or use two rulers or use another judge to help.

Just remember that there are many variable orchid shapes. What drives me crazy is measuring a Stanhopea or Coryanthes!! But it is always the widest point horizontally on a flower to the longest point vertically on a flower, regardless of flower segments.

 

[big923cattleya]

Oh thanks Tom!!! Appreciate it!

 

[Ozpaph]

pass

 

[FrankRC]

Trade for a few pots

 

[Paph Paradise]

There are plenty of positives about that flower. The crowding and size would bring down the score, of course. I find too many judges are obsessed with size. When I am team captain there are two rules: your first comment must be positive and no measurements are taken until we discuss all the other attributes of the flower(s).
The 'first comment must be positive' rule is important. When you start by pointing out flaws the entire discussion can take a negative turn. Also, we often have the exhibitors in the judging room. If they just hear us saying what's wrong with their plant it is not very encouraging and they think we are just a bunch of jerks who don't like anything.
As for size, there's a saying that 'size is only 10 points, but it's the first 10 points.' The reason I don't want flowers measured until everything else is discussed is so that we can get past that first 10 points mentality. Proportionally sized segments are more important than overall size. That's why form is 30 points on most of the scales. If the form and color are AM quality, then 5/10 for size still gives you an award.
As for this flower, it looks like it might squeak by with a 75 for me, but it's really hard to be sure from a photo.

Dave

 

[Ozpaph]

a very interesting and considered perspective, Dave

 

[Tony]

It has been my experience as an exhibitor/observer that an undersized flower is unlikely to get any of those first 10 points because it simply won't be nominated and scored. I tend to agree on passing the plant in question but encouraging the grower to show it again on a more mature and better groomed blooming, it is a nice flower with good potential but handing out HCCs like a consolation prize has undermined their value. I won't submit a plant unless I'm confident it is a solid AM contender or better.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

It has been my experience as an exhibitor/observer that an undersized flower is unlikely to get any of those first 10 points because it simply won't be nominated and scored. I tend to agree on passing the plant in question but encouraging the grower to show it again on a more mature and better groomed blooming, it is a nice flower with good potential but handing out HCCs like a consolation prize has undermined their value. I won't submit a plant unless I'm confident it is a solid AM contender or better.

I don’t think HCC is a consolation prize at all. If so, under the perspective of an FCC, the AM is the consolation lol.

There are many fantastic HUGE flowers that received HCC not because of size, but rather other attributes that lower their score portions… eg form or color.

So don’t underestimate the power of the HCC. (Which could upgrade to AM and FCC later! Like percivaliana ‘Summit’!!)

 

[Tony]

I don’t think HCC is a consolation prize at all. If so, under the perspective of an FCC, the AM is the consolation lol.

There are many fantastic HUGE flowers that received HCC not because of size, but rather other attributes that lower their score portions… eg form or color.

So don’t underestimate the power of the HCC. (Which could upgrade to AM and FCC later! Like percivaliana ‘Summit’!!)

It's just my personal preference, if I think I have an HCC quality flower I'm happy to hold it back until it's ready for the higher award. I've been told by several judges that it is a wiser strategy as well to have a higher floor for when seeking an upgrade, they're going to be more willing to bump a midrange AM to FCC than they would to bump an HCC past a low AM.

 

[Tony]

I think someone at the AOS secretly agrees too, why else would an HCC break the precious metals theme and get a clearance tag green sticker rather than copper/bronze?