Emailed F&W about Viet Paph imports again.

s1214215 · Apr 14, 2011

I have emailed Fisheries and Wildlife again to ask about Paph species found in Vietnam and neihbouring countries and if they can be imported to the USA. I await a reply.

delenatii - Vietnam, China - widespread in world collections including 'dunkle form' and pure alba. Just saw it for sale in a prominent US nurseries website

emersonii - Vietnam, China (Yunnan and Guangdong) - found in US collections though I am told.

hangianum - Vietnam, China (Yunnan) - starting to show up in US collections legally, I am told. This is the species I question. I was told that it has been indentified in-situ in China.

helenae - Vietnam (Cao Bang) - a few in US collections are coming legal now.

jackii (Syn malipoense v. jackii) - Vietnam, China (Yunnan)

malipoense - Vietnam, China (Yunnan) - common in collections due to huge quantities exported. I just saw for sale on a prominent nurseries website and it looked like ex-Taiwan stock from the name.

micranthum - Vietnam, China (Guangxi, Yunnan, Guizhou) - in USA legally and common.

tranlienianum - Vietnam

vietnamense - Vietnam - in USA collections.

Bolero · Apr 14, 2011

Ok, that's interesting as we have all these in Australia but that has always been an issue. So are you checking before you buy them or is there a reason you posted that you did this? Sorry just getting context around why you sent the email....

Thanks

Darren

s1214215 · Apr 14, 2011

Hi Darren

I am sending to the USA, and checking that they can get there.

Good to know what paphs we have in Oz though.. I am bring quite a lot back in flask when I come back and didnt know if tranlienum was around or not. I was tempted to get a second flask and I was not sure if thaianum had been brought in by anyone other than me.

Have their been problems bringing Paphs to Oz other than AQIS fumigating them to death?

On topic though, I am trying to get details on all these species as I dont want to send paphs that do grow in Vietnam and/or elsewhere to see them rejected when sent to the USA in flask.

Brett

emydura · Apr 14, 2011

s1214215 said:
Hi Darren

I am sending to the USA, and checking that they can get there.

Good to know what paphs we have in Oz though.. I am bring quite a lot back in flask when I come back and didnt know if tranlienum was around or not. I was tempted to get a second flask and I was not sure if thaianum had been brought in by anyone other than me.

Have their been problems bringing Paphs to Oz other than AQIS fumigating them to death?

On topic though, I am trying to get details on all these species as I dont want to send paphs that do grow in Vietnam and/or elsewhere to see them rejected when sent to the USA in flask.

Brett

There are no problems in Australia. You can bring anything.

As for the US I think you won't be allowed to ship in helenae, translienianum, hangianum and possibly jackii. I'll let those in the US confirm and explain why.

David

Bolero · Apr 14, 2011

Ah I see, that makes more sense. Thanks for that, wasn't sure what was going on.

Flasks don't get fumigated and you can bring up to 6 back without a permit. Let us know how you go.

You only need fumigation in Australia if you are bringing back plants out of flask.........

s1214215 · Apr 14, 2011

Thanks David

Well, lets see what Fisheries and Wildlife say to as they control the import of plants.

To me it seems like Vietnam has made a claim on some species that are not 100% endemic.

On top of that, why stop legal export when the Vietnamese govt seems to do practically nothing to stop the illegal export (maybe theres more money in that for some). I certain see enough wild Viet paphs here in Bangkok from time to time at the markets.

Seems insane to stop the trade in propagated plants at the cost of wild ones.

emydura · Apr 14, 2011

s1214215 said:
Thanks David

Well, lets see what Fisheries and Wildlife say to as they control the import of plants.

To me it seems like Vietnam has made a claim on some species that are not 100% endemic.

On top of that, why stop legal export when the Vietnamese govt seems to do practically nothing to stop the illegal export (maybe theres more money in that for some). I certain see enough wild Viet paphs here in Bangkok from time to time at the markets.

Seems insane to stop the trade in propagated plants at the cost of wild ones.

I didn't say it made any sense. The US interpretation of CITES is unique to say the least.

Best of luck

David

s1214215 · Apr 14, 2011

emydura said:
I didn't say it made any sense. The US interpretation of CITES is unique to say the least.

Best of luck

David

Thanks David.. I appreciate your input. Yes, it doesnt make sense, but then neither does Vietnam's stance.:sob:

Brett

s1214215 · Apr 14, 2011

Just got a reply from Fisheries and Wildlife (USA).

"Dear Brett, Thanks for following up. I am consulting with others here who have greater expertise regarding the orchid trade. I should have a response for you by tomorrow. Best, Craig"

Lets hope for a favourable reply. I highlighted the issue that some species are already legal in the USA, and others may exist outside Vietnam.

Brett

NYEric · Apr 14, 2011

Thanx for the effort, please remember that some of these species were allowed to be sold as offspring and hybids of grown out from plants given confiscated materials, vietnamense thru Antec for example. The plants these "rescue centers" sold are therefore legal!

s1214215 · Apr 14, 2011

Hi Eric..

YEs, true. But then isnt it becoming a silly situation to refuse flasks from other countries? They are in the USA, I still think its all rather silly to refuse plants from Taiwan or elsewhere that are line-bred and thus not wild collected. Atleast not for some time.. Here in Thailand, wild plants among serious hobbyists are less and less popular, atleast when dealing with flasks..

Anyway, who am I to try to figure out the minds of the people who make these rules, laws etc. Too many ivory towers for me.

Brett

s1214215 · Apr 15, 2011

OK, got a reply. Here it is. Comments anyone.

"Dear Brett,

Thanks again for your email. As I noted earlier, the key issue would be whether the parental stock were legally obtained. So, even for specimens that are widely available, it may be that some, but not all, stock have been derived from legal specimens. In other words, there are few instances where I am able to make a blanket statement about what is and is not legal to import to the United States.

Regarding your list, the ones that would be of least concern regarding the legality of parental stock, based on our understanding that legal specimens were widely available and in trade prior to their listing in Appendix I, are: delenatii, emersonii, malipoense, micranthum, villosum. Also, delenatii is one of the two Vietnamese endemics that Viet Nam allowed out more recently before closing the door on further exports from the wild.

Regarding hangianum, it is my understanding that there are plants of legal origin exported from China, but we are not aware of production of this species from legal origin plants elsewhere. Both helenae and vietnamense are legally available within the United States because they originated from confiscated parental stock. However, we are not aware of legal specimens elsewhere. We are not aware of legal exports of tranlienianum from Viet Nam. We are also not aware of legal specimens of jackii. So, unless you have information/documentation to support the lawful acquisition of specimens of these species, it is unlikely that we would allow their import to the United States. We would be less concerned about those in the second paragraph, though again, the parental stock still must be lawfully obtained.

I hope that helps. Please let me know if you have further questions.

Best,

Craig Hoover
Chief, Branch of Operations
USFWS Division of Management Authority"

SlipperFan · Apr 15, 2011

Interesting -- please keep us posted.

gonewild · Apr 15, 2011

So based on what Crag wrote you can import hangianum into the USA from China with CITES documents issued by China.

If you want to export hangianum from Thailand into the USA you need some form of proof that the parent stock was legally exported from China to Thailand.

quietaustralian · Apr 15, 2011

gonewild said:
So based on what Crag wrote you can import hangianum into the USA from China with CITES documents issued by China.

If you want to export hangianum from Thailand into the USA you need some form of proof that the parent stock was legally exported from China to Thailand.

Thats the way I read it too.
Mick

gonewild · Apr 15, 2011

quietaustralian said:
Thats the way I read it too.
Mick

Well perhaps if the Thailand CITES office certified that the hangianum flasks were legally propagated in Thailand by issuing CITES export certificates the USA F&W would accept the import. They could justify the entry based on trusting that Thailand CITES was correctly issuing the documents and had verified the legality of the parent stock.

I think F&W would have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the Thai documents as long as they were genuine. They just need to see real papers properly executed.

So there is the next question for Craig.

Eric Muehlbauer · Apr 15, 2011

Thank you Brett, for all you are doing for us!

Bolero · Apr 15, 2011

Interesting, keep us posted........sounds somewhat promising.

NYEric · Apr 15, 2011

being discrete.

AquaGem · Apr 16, 2011

gonewild said:
Well perhaps if the Thailand CITES office certified that the hangianum flasks were legally propagated in Thailand by issuing CITES export certificates the USA F&W would accept the import. They could justify the entry based on trusting that Thailand CITES was correctly issuing the documents and had verified the legality of the parent stock.

I think F&W would have no reason to doubt the accuracy of the Thai documents as long as they were genuine. They just need to see real papers properly executed.

So there is the next question for Craig.

They wil still ask for the documents that leads to the legality of the parent plants that produces these seedlings.

Emailed F&W about Viet Paph imports again.

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