Emailed F&W about Viet Paph imports again.

[s1214215]

I have emailed back for clarification. Lets see what informatiion comes back.

1: How do you determine plants in flask “derived from legal specimens?” Well this sis problematic as in some countries it is not illegal to collect wild plants. I have been told this is the case in China.

2: Does the amount of generations of breeding from a species have any consequence for import to the USA? I suspect not.

3: What certification proves other than the statement on the phytosanitary certificate from an issuing country that the plants in flask are propagated and legal for export?
It would seem that a legal document such as a phytosanitary where the species is clearly declared (for flasks) is a document where country of issue is vouching that the plants contained within are legally propagated.

Or is there some certificate that each and every species of Vietnamese nature is meant to carry to say it or its parent plants were legally exported? This really needs spelling out what certs are needed.

4: If Vietnam was to export seed of a species of concern, would this make plants in flask legal?

At least we have what seems an OK for delenatii, emersonii, malipoense, micranthum, villosum. I have seen some of them for sale in the USA and clearly from newly imported stock in some cases given the clonal names of the plants.

Brett

 

[quietaustralian]

I have emailed back for clarification. Lets see what informatiion comes back.

1: How do you determine plants in flask “derived from legal specimens?” Well this sis problematic as in some countries it is not illegal to collect wild plants. I have been told this is the case in China.


Brett

It is illegal to remove orchids and some other plants from nature in Vietnam. That being said, enforcement is erratic and sometimes non existent. You don't get many pics of Vietnamese orchid collections on this forum because there is always the possibility of a knock on the door. I thought this was the case in China too but I could be wrong.People do get busted for smuggling orchids from time to time but it doesn't make the news. Occasionally someone will be busted with a tiger carcass in the back of a taxi and that will make the news.

Regards, Mick

 

[NYEric]

as well it should!

 

[likespaphs]

isn't the main problem with plant from Vietnam legally entering the U.S. is that they are not a signatory to c.i.t.e.s.?

 

[quietaustralian]

isn't the main problem with plant from Vietnam legally entering the U.S. is that they are not a signatory to c.i.t.e.s.?

Vietnam became a party to CITES in 1994.

Regards, Mick

 

[NYEric]

The problem is that vietnam says they never legally released some species, even though there were plants exported with the approval of some viet CITES offices!

 

[quietaustralian]

I have emailed Fisheries and Wildlife again to ask about Paph species found in Vietnam and neihbouring countries and if they can be imported to the USA. I await a reply.

delenatii - Vietnam, China - widespread in world collections including 'dunkle form' and pure alba. Just saw it for sale in a prominent US nurseries website

emersonii - Vietnam, China (Yunnan and Guangdong) - found in US collections though I am told.

hangianum - Vietnam, China (Yunnan) - starting to show up in US collections legally, I am told. This is the species I question. I was told that it has been indentified in-situ in China.

helenae - Vietnam (Cao Bang) - a few in US collections are coming legal now.

jackii (Syn malipoense v. jackii) - Vietnam, China (Yunnan)

malipoense - Vietnam, China (Yunnan) - common in collections due to huge quantities exported. I just saw for sale on a prominent nurseries website and it looked like ex-Taiwan stock from the name.

micranthum - Vietnam, China (Guangxi, Yunnan, Guizhou) - in USA legally and common.

tranlienianum - Vietnam

vietnamense - Vietnam - in USA collections.

I find it hard to believe that China can claim to have natural populations of delenatii unless they consider Vietnam a renegade state and not a country in its own right.

I'm interested in any papers or reliable documented sources regarding hangianum occurring naturally in China. I have heard that hangianum has been found there but haven't seen documentation. Anyone have some links?

Mick

 

[Howzat]

I agree with the establishment of CITES. But I doubt if the administration of it, is practical and fair or is it there to prevent the proliferation of a species?? Since I read the "Orchid Fever" some 10-11 years ago, I became skeptical about the administration of CITES. Where did all the plants confiscated in that European raids end up?? At RHS : many died, but I heard some ended up in some American Glass Houses.
How can you distinguish a legal from illegal. Do you have to keep the trail of paper works at all times.???
I bought hangianum in flask from Taiwan 3 years ago also some hybrids in the last 4 years. If a CITES agent asked me, I would not be able to prove that those plants in flasks are legal. It will be 4-5 years before they bloom. In the mean time other countries have already had their first and second generation hybrids. Australia likes to be seen as upholding CITES, that is why we are well behind in hybridising or even in preserving the species. There are thousands of hangianum in Taiwan and Japan and it is not considered as rare.
I also hybridised and selfed my malipoense, I do not have any paper work to say that my malipoense is a legal plant, which had it since 1988.
If it was not for hybridiser like Terry Root and the likes, sanderianum and many other species would still be so rare. I think there are more sanderianum in private collection than there are still in the wild. Do we need to change the CITES rules?? which probably in its current form is something drawn up by some clever lawyers and botanists living in fairyland???????????

 

[Marc]

Brett, allthough I'm not directly affected by this I apreciate the time and effort your putting into this to help our fellow Slipperfans in the US out.

Most Paphs that would be illegal to own in the US are easy to come by in Europe. A situation that I find odd myself but that's another discussion.

 

[NYEric]

I find it hard to believe that China can claim to have natural populations of delenatii unless they consider Vietnam a renegade state and not a country in its own right.
Mick

The People's Democratic Republic would openly welcome the return of our glorious brethren to the south to our family. :evil:
Actually, I've heard that parts of Vietnam are currently considered by the Chinese government to be within it's borders!

Most Paphs that would be illegal to own in the US are easy to come by in Europe. A situation that I find odd myself ...

So do we!

 

[s1214215]

The reply from F&W

I have emailed back for clarification. Lets see what informatiion comes back.

1: How do you determine plants in flask “derived from legal specimens?” Well this sis problematic as in some countries it is not illegal to collect wild plants. I have been told this is the case in China.

2: Does the amount of generations of breeding from a species have any consequence for import to the USA? I suspect not.

3: What certification proves other than the statement on the phytosanitary certificate from an issuing country that the plants in flask are propagated and legal for export?
It would seem that a legal document such as a phytosanitary where the species is clearly declared (for flasks) is a document where country of issue is vouching that the plants contained within are legally propagated.

Or is there some certificate that each and every species of Vietnamese nature is meant to carry to say it or its parent plants were legally exported? This really needs spelling out what certs are needed.

4: If Vietnam was to export seed of a species of concern, would this make plants in flask legal?

Brett

Hi Everyone..

Heres the reply from Fisheries and Wildlife to the questions I put forward.

Brett

"Dear Brett

Thanks for the response. Here are my responses to your questions in the order you asked them:

1. With regard to determining whether specimens are derived from legal parental stock, I appreciate that this can be difficult. We know that, for certain endemic species, the source country has indicated that no specimens have been allowed out for commercial purposes. Using a non-orchid example, there are many Australian reptile and bird species found in international trade globally, yet Australia has never issued permits for their export. Therefore, we are unable to issue permits even for captive-bred specimens because we know that the parental stock (even if going back several generations) was not lawfully obtained from Australia. For species that are not so clearcut, there should be documentation to support the lawful origin of the parental stock. The issue is not whether they are or not flasked and artificially propagated, but rather whether the original stock from the wild was lawfully exported and obtained.

2. The number of generations removed from the wild stock is not relevant to the determination of legal origin.

3. Certainly, documentation that indicates that the specimens are artificially propagated and lawfully exported is helpful to our determination. However, it is not definitive, again using the example I cited above.

4. Seeds of Paphiopedilum species are still covered by the CITES Appendix-I listing. Therefore, any exports would still have to meet the CITES requirements. CITES documentation from Vietnam for seeds would certainly be evidence of lawful acquisition. But whether they allow the export or not will be up to the Vietnamese authorities.

I hope this helps. Let me know if you have other questions.

Best,

Craig"

 

[quietaustralian]

It’s ironic that on other forums out there on the web, reptile, mammal and bird keepers are cursing Australia for having some of the toughest wildlife laws in the world.
Mick

 

[s1214215]

Yes, its ironic and I say stupid that we dont allow a controlled limited export of our fauna. Smuggling as a result is encouraged.

Take a stroll through Jatujak market, where your will find species smuggled from all around the world. I have seen ringtail possum, sugar gliders, various coral, fish from Australia, as well as many others I could name. Sellers happily will tell you were a lot came from. None of this will go away, this market has been there for years and is very protected.

Now, why not control the a reasonable export. Maybe we may learn something in the process. The sugar glider is supposed to be endangered and hard to breed. Well the Thais breed them in the thousands for the pet trade. They must have figured something out. They even have colour variants now. Only one state allows them to be kept as pets. Now, thats dumb as obviously they can be bred, and why not re-introduce to the wild if they are so scarce? Yet we allow cats and dogs to continue to decimate the wild populations.

The issue is the same as it is for many orchids around the world. Instead of preserving species in cultivation, governments are allowing them to disappear due to uncontrolled poaching. Its time we took control of how exports occur, instead of shutting the doors and encouraging smuggling.

Brett

 

[NYEric]

Obviously the beaurocrats would stand behind their archaic inane rules!

 

[s1214215]

Agreed

Anyway, back to the reply from F&W above. It seems we are still in the same boat of how do you prove something is propagated legally, and if a country is supposed to have not let a species out, then its probably not happening any time soon

Brett