Calcicolus slippers

[limuhead]

I have a shipment of kovachii's coming any day and in doing research I have found that they sometimes grow in mosses on limestone outcrops/cliffs. Some of the pictures I have seen show the roots attached to the limestone under a mat of moss and/or leaf litter. As a carpenter by trade I do kitchen and bath remodels fairly frequently. The last time I had to pick up material for a job it was travertine; a natural limestone tile. I was wondering if using this in my mix, or better yet as a container would work. Also as a novice I would appreciate some input as to what other Phrags and Paphs might benefit from limestone. I have access to a pallet of broken tiles, most of which are natural stone; unpolished and slightly rough finish.
Thanks in advance, Fred

 

[Linus_Cello]

I've heard Kovachii talks with folks using crushed oyster shell for lime and calcium (and also diatomite).

I guess this may work; I'll let those with experience with this weigh in. (My guess is it would be better to have chips, rather than a container, would make the minerals more accessible to the plant).

 

[limuhead]

I used to put oyster shell in my Cattleya bark mixes and there would always be some roots stuck to it. I have never used it sphagnum mixes before, which is what I had planned for my kovachii's...

 

[ALToronto]

The only thing I would worry about with floor tiles is the sealer they might be treated with. They often are, to make them less likely to stain in transit. You wouldn't see it on the surface. I would soak the chips in an acidic solution to etch away the sealed layer.

 

[silence882]

There are many slippers found growing on limestone. Several years ago I posted a list based on what I'd read of their habitats in various articles and books. There was a lot more info available on Paphs than Phrags:
http://slipperorchids.info/calcicolous.html

I top dress the 'Yes' ones with calcium sand. This includes kovachii hybrids since kovachii is found growing exclusively on limestone cliffs.

That being said, there are much more experienced growers who would have more reliable opinions.

--Stephen

 

[limuhead]

The only thing I would worry about with floor tiles is the sealer they might be treated with. They often are, to make them less likely to stain in transit. You wouldn't see it on the surface. I would soak the chips in an acidic solution to etch away the sealed layer.

According to the distributor the tiles are not sealed with anything. That was the first thing I asked.

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

Can't speak for kovachii, but the 1 hybrid grew (x longifolium) did terribly with limestone in the mix. Despite the sphagnum, it was chlorotic until I repotted it into my standard phrag mix (bark, spongerock, NZ sphag) with no extra Ca. It recovered and went on to bloom, but can't say it was very attractive. I'd stay away from extra Ca on kovachii hybrids.

 

[annab]

good luck for yours kovachii , I like a lot these beautiful plants but I think for now is better for me stay away because I haven't the right condition to give them ,for me now buy it would be an expensive hazard maybe when the price are more cheap I will try .
I think that people overemphasizing the importance of the soil mix where these plants are find, I think is important but the most very important is some parametric like temp.humidity water and wind .for example a beech tree don't grow in the lowlands firstly for a question of temperature and not for soil questions .I think when kovachii seeds fall on the ground what they find above goes well, the seed stay there and there grow of course ,nothing else ,isn't true that they want CA because grow on the limestone cliffs or another things ,they grow there because the mother plants stay there .but of course if the experience suggest that they doing well adding oyster ,why not adding this element in the mix?but is for me a marginal aspect ,some plants are confined in some place not only because there find best condition but also for random reason ,otherwise why if in the world there is a lots of place like Perù habitat only there grow kovachii plant?there is thousand of case like this in the world ,plant that grow only there.anyways I don't want say that the soil isn't important of course it is !
helpful is "experiment and test" and good advice (that I can not give you for now maybe later),attempt ,attempt and attempt I have fear that you get the good informations principally only from own experience,anyways try for you is a low risk because you are a good grower and you live in advantaged place with good climate.
so try grow kovachii like you want and experiment all you want maybe get ready to lose some money and do not think at Andes landscape.in Italy say:se sono rose fioriranno.(per me son rose e fioriranno perchè sei bravo) good luck.
Anna

 

[NYEric]

Moss, decent size (3/8" - 1/2") limestone, coarse sponge-rock, oyster shell dressing.

 

[Rick]

I was given kovachii insitu soil and leaf tissue data from Alfredo Manrique (via Lance) in Peru.

Kovachii is a classic low K orchid, and has almost identical tissue levels of K, Ca, and Mg as epiphytic Epidendrum species I detailed in my article. What was different from the epiphytes was that it had significantly less N than all the epiphytic species measured in the Zotz work.

That said, it doesn't make a difference how much calcareous materials you pile up in the potting mix, if you give significant amounts of K in the feed it will still come out Ca deficient over time. I would caution that if you really pile on the lime, you'll end up with high pH and conductivity issues that will be detrimental.

Your best bet to managing this plant is to put it in a real open, neutral pH mix and water the heck out of it with soft to moderately hard water spiked with about 5 ppm of N.

 

[limuhead]

I just got my 20 PK's(2-3" leafspan) and planted them in VERY loose straight Sphagnum; just enough to hold them upright in the pot. I am hoping that it will work until they establish new roots. Not too long ago I got a few hybrids from Peruflora which were beat up, no/dead roots and dehydrated from the trip. I put them in net pots and now they are locked in, roots popping out everywhere and one of them looks like it may bloom soon. The hybrids were all PK as the plant that held the pod, PK x walissii, PK x boiserianum, and PK x sargentianum. I keep seeing a lot of info about putting rock/gravel in the mix with good results. I also got 13 flasks of assorted Phrag hybrids, a few PK crosses, mostly besseae influenced which I am thinking about putting some rock in as well later.

 

[ALToronto]

According to the distributor the tiles are not sealed with anything. That was the first thing I asked.

I would still soak them in acid. Travertine is most likely quarried in Turkey, and the distributor may not know if it's treated with anything. Probably not, but why take chances? Also, if it's filled travertine (i.e. you don't see any voids on the surface), it has either a cement or an epoxy filler. In either case, there is probably crap you don't want near your plants.

Now, I have a related question. I've just made another living wall, to be kept in low light, to house my four Stanhopeas. At the bottom of the wall is a planter that water drips down to, and the spout that drains the water creates a bit of a semi-hydro environment because it's raised by 1 cm or so inside the planter. Normally I fill it with lava rock and plant anthuriums, but now I'm thinking of putting in lime-tolerant low light slippers. Any suggestions? My issue is similar to limuhead's, but there is also the low light part.

Here are pictures from the pour. It's a tall skinny wall, with a water reservoir at the top and a planter catch-basin at the bottom. This time I added some crushed olivine (magnesium monosilicate) to the hemp fibre mix, so I'm expecting not to have to supplement with Epsom salts.

 

[Rick]

My concerns with that much lime is high pH,phosphorus starvation, and excess Ca:Mg ratio (maybe in that order).

The above concerns are reduced with well sealed and high density stone work.

If you want to get an idea of suitability then stick a few grams of these materials in a glass of water and see how much the pH and conductivity changes over a day.

That limestone gravel in my driveway doesn't change water chemistry hardly at all after a week, but the same amount of "Cichlid Sand" (aragonite sand) will launch the pH and conductivity overnight. So I don't use the cichlid sand any more.

 

[ALToronto]

I find that my material stabilizes fairly quickly, at least as far as pH is concerned. I have to add citric acid to water for about 2 months, reducing the amount gradually, until plain water runoff measures around 6-6.5. Adding phosphorus to my existing living walls caused extensive algae growth, so I've backed off. And olivine is supposed to reduce the Ca:Mg ratio, I just hope it doesn't reduce it too much.

Travertine is not just plain limestone, and my guess is that different travertines behave differently. Frank, I would do this experiment with your travertine: separate it into two batches, treat both with an acidic solution, then rinse and dry off completely. Then for one of the batches, get some marble crystallizer or just plain lithium silicate, put it in a spray bottle and spray the chips all over. Run a torch flame over them once they're dry (because you can't buff them at high speed to speed up the reaction), then spray them with vinegar or some other acid (not hydrochloric). Rinse off. Then place each batch in a plastic or glass container and fill with pure water. Soak for a few hours or overnight, then measure pH and EC/TDS for each batch. I would expect higher readings across the board for the travertine without the silicate treatment.

Is there a university near you where you can get the travertine tested for Ca and Mg content?