Cattleya trianae 'Cashen's' FCC/AOS

[southernbelle]

For some of you out there, that may grow trianae and are able to compare plant growth characteristics, I find that the plant substance particularly the leaf thickness of Cashens is much heavier than others, and an annoying growth habit seems to be the distance of the plant pseudobulbs along the rhizome, which causes the plant to quickly grow out of the pot, forcing much more frequent repotting, so this clone seems to need greater spacing from the pot margin or you will need to repot every other year. As a result I am potting in larger pots and having to use a media mixture that is less moisture retentive. Cheers.

Yes, David you are so right! I went 3 years because of surgery, etc. and finally had to cut off the overhanging 5 or 6 bulbs with almost all their roots out of the pot. Since there were some longer roots, I put the overhang division in moss/clay pot as to damage the roots the least. It has established well, but now is up against the edge of the pot again! In less than a year! It’s in spike, so I’ll do something with it once it blooms.
For some reason, under my lights, I have a lot of plants with growth habits that literally grow out of the pot in a year to 18 months. Either out of the pot, or climb above the mix. I have a hard time keeping up with it. And I only have about 85 plants.
I like overpotting it into a larger/better drainage mix. I’ll try that.

 

[southernbelle]

Well said, Deborah. You have been a great learner. An "F1 meristem" is a plant produced by culturing the meristem tissue of an original plant. A plant from a meristem of a meristem would usually be called a "secondary meristem-derived plant." As you said, the meristem process has a chance of gene alterations. Most plants will be close to the original, but a few will be better or worse. A secondary meristem-derived plant will have a greater chance of variation.

I have a great teacher!

 

[southernbelle]

I don't know what I mean. I'm guessing that since it came from Carter & Holmes, it's a meristem taken from an original division of the awarded plant, and not a meristem taken from another meristem. A copy of the original, and not a copy of a copy, if you will.
The plant was purchased from C & H in 2017, so perhaps Bridget Uzar would have the backstory on it.

I believe, because it came from C & H back then, you can trust it to be an F1 meristem. It couldn’t be more beautiful!
Bill Rogerson got the award on it. A 91 pt FCC in 2005, so all the originals come from his awarded plant, through those he’s given/traded divisions to as he does not sell his plants.
I just had a conversation with Carmella.Carey (Patrick) regarding this since my memory was not complete. Gene Crocker cloned Cashen’s from their original plant (from Rogerson) so your plant is an F1. Patrick knows the exact story of who and what with Cashen’s. I’ve asked him to chime in here. It’s very interesting history of this wonderful cultivar.

 

[David B]

Waldor just re-meristemed George King ‘Serendipity’ from their original plant because they noticed a decrease in quality in those meristems out there from others. Quality of meristems does seem to diminish over future generations. And just because someone has the OP and has meristemed it, it might be they are selling meristems done by someone else because theirs’ sold out long ago.
Toshie Aoki ‘Pizzaz’ was meristemed to death (meristem of meristem of meristem…) and most meristems today show tremendous variation from OP. There are no known OP of this still available. Carter and Holmes offered a division of their early meristem a couple of years ago. I grabbed it. C&H’s is the one that’s like the OP that they’ve used for breeding (crossing) for years. It looks like the original Toshie in their photo. I have had 3 or 4 ‘Pizzaz’ that were awful. Two from Akatsuka and one from Plato Matthews. Two were virused, maybe some was cultural but very muddy colors, not clear yellow with red flares. Terryros and I are growing one separately to see how much culture affects them.
One other factor is how many meristems are taken at once. Frank Smith told me they never do more than 300 at a time as quality decreases.
This is way out of my wheelhouse, as I can’t even tell you what a telomere is, and I’m sure some of you who are more scientifically minded can critique my statements. But I know from multiple breeders, there are meristems not as good, as good or better than the OP. Is that because they were taken or not taken from OP? I don’t know.
But one example of ‘better than’ is Pamela Hetherington ‘Coronation’. Dave Off (this is his favorite Catt) says the meristem is better than the original, in his opinion. I have the original from him and the meristem from him. When I saw the meristem for the first time it really got my attention. The meristem is a much stronger plant and better flower from the blooms I’ve seen, so I agree. This is all empirical/anecdotal, but… Genes do interesting things. Think natural (4N), as an example.
George King ‘Southern Cross’ came from a meristeming of ‘Serendipity’ by someone in Australia, if I remember correctly that Carter & Holmes got.
We have identical twins. Genetically identical on the genetic testing to the point each of their children show to be the children of both twins. However, the twins have different genetic variants. It does not appear anything in this universe is identical, not even identical twins where the egg divided.
Having said that, your point about a meristem taken from a 100 year old OP, is indeed that same 100 year old plant (but perhaps with variants??). But a division of that original 100 year old plant would be that exact plant genetically.

Actually very good news, I do not have George King, but have considered it. I have closely examined at least 20 pics of George King in the last few years, and have been dissapointed in the form and vibrancy and depth of color and this has resulted in a pass by me on this clone. I have been asked many times by customers, do I have this grex and had to advise no. I feel that I could likely grow it as well as anyone and perhaps improve on some. Experience has taught that proper culture, humidity, temperature, water quality and very high quality nutrition does make a difference. Dr.Ee's plants have many ODV (original division) tags so mericlone quality drop off is not a factor. I will keep an eye on Waldor for plants. I also think it is time for Dr.Ee to consider mericlone on a few of his trianae though most have been at least selfed. Cheers.

 

[southernbelle]

Actually very good news, I do not have George King, but have considered it. I have closely examined at least 20 pics of George King in the last few years, and have been dissapointed in the form and vibrancy and depth of color and this has resulted in a pass by me on this clone. I have been asked many times by customers, do I have this grex and had to advise no. I feel that I could likely grow it as well as anyone and perhaps improve on some. Experience has taught that proper culture, humidity, temperature, water quality and very high quality nutrition does make a difference. Dr.Ee's plants have many ODV (original division) tags so mericlone quality drop off is not a factor. I will keep an eye on Waldor for plants. I also think it is time for Dr.Ee to consider mericlone on a few of his trianae though most have been at least selfed. Cheers.

David, I would contact Dave at Waldor. I’m pretty sure the new meristems are currently available. They don’t put a lot on their website and once something hits eBay the price escalates. I wish you were in the US, I could trade an orig div (from Waldor) with you. Incredible color in my plant.

 

[setaylien]

This is a first-bloom mericlone offered by Carter & Holmes a few years back and given to me in 2021 by a grower who had too many plants and not enough time nor space.

Fragrance is mild, floral and some spice. First trianae for me, love the flowers, and even more, the time of year it blooms.

You're starting at the top! 'Cashen's' is one of the best C. trianae's. You're a fortunate man.

 

[My Green Pets]

I also have a clone of AC Burrage and would love to have a clone of The President as well.

 

[southernbelle]

I also have a clone of AC Burrage and would love to have a clone of The President as well.

Waldor has had the virus removed from 'The President' by Beth Lamb, and has meristems.
William, here is the link:
https://www.waldor.com/products/c-t...rALAJeqmgABoQaUDR9rpS9ZWV8xkGKFwdIF0sHBu7NuiZ

 

[Carmella.carey]

I believe, because it came from C & H back then, you can trust it to be an F1 meristem. It couldn’t be more beautiful!
Bill Rogerson got the award on it. A 91 pt FCC in 2005, so all the originals come from his awarded plant, through those he’s given/traded divisions to as he does not sell his plants.
I just had a conversation with Carmella.Carey (Patrick) regarding this since my memory was not complete. Gene Crocker cloned Cashen’s from their original plant (from Rogerson) so your plant is an F1. Patrick knows the exact story of who and what with Cashen’s. I’ve asked him to chime in here. It’s very interesting history of this wonderful cultivar.

Alright, here's the story. Before I begin, I want to say that the plants that C & H has been offering are F1 (First Generation) mericlones from their division of the original awarded plant and all that I have seen bloom have been very high quality. Also, 'Cashen's' is a confirmed tetraploid (4N).

Cashen's is a "Hybrid" trianaei, (i.e. a man-made cross between two cultivars within a spices, in this case, trianaei). It came out of John Cashen's cross of (trianaei 'B' x trianaei 'Mary Fennell' HCC/AOS) I don't know anything about the 'B' parent, I don't even know what it looked like. Cashen's is, however, nearly identical to the 'Mary Fennell' parent, only with better shape.
C. trianaei 'Mary Fennell' was wild collected in 1888 by Lee Arthur Fennell, the founder of Fennell's Orchid Jungle in Homestead, FL. A plant of 'Mary Fennell' was naturalized on a palm tree at the Fennell's Orchid Jungle, so, when it was devastated by hurricane Andrew in 1992 and most of the palms came down, that plant was recovered, and it was still virus free, since it had been up in the tree and away from infected tools.

So, with divisions of 'Mary Fennell' being not only available again, but virus free, lots of Florida growers (John Cashen lived in FL.) began making trianaei out-crosses with it. I don't know if Mary Fennell has been counted, but I wound be very surprised if it is not a tetraploid.

Bill Rogerson, the man who exhibited Cashen's when it received it's FCC in 2005, visited Gene Crocker, who was the head hybridizer at C & H at the time, and Gene showed him these three un-bloomed seedlings of 'B' x 'Mary Fennell' that he picked up from John Cashen on a trip to Redlands. Both Crocker and Rogerson knew this cross was going to produce some very nice things. Note, one of the three seedlings Bill saw at C & H died, while the other two became trianaei 'Newberry' and 'Mendenhall'.

When Bill Rogerson got back to Chicago, (where he lives) he contacted John Cashen and asked him if he had any of those seedlings still available. If I remember correctly, Rogerson traded something for a seedling. Low and behold, that seedling ended up being the best of the cross and in 2005 was awarded a 91 pt. FCC and Rogerson very kindly named after Cashen. To this day, it is probably the best-shaped and darkest trianaei ever exhibited.

-Patrick

 

[southernbelle]

Thank you, Patrick! I love this historical detail!! Not to hijack the thread, but for those of you who are interested, here is a photo of one of the parents. Mary Fennell that I was fortunate to score on eBay. from a woman who got it from Fennell’s Orchid Jungle in the 80’s before Hurricane Andrew destroyed it. It is clean. The other parent C. trianae ‘B’.must have been amazing, too!

it.

 

[BrucherT]

Thank you, Patrick! I love this historical detail!! Not to hijack the thread, but for those of you who are interested, here is a photo of one of the parents. Mary Fennell that I was fortunate to score on eBay. from a woman who got it from Fennell’s Orchid Jungle in the 80’s before Hurricane Andrew destroyed it. It is clean. The other parent C. trianae ‘B’.must have been amazing, too!

it. View attachment 51481

I love this one. What a treasure.

 

[terryros]

Thank you, Patrick! I love this historical detail!! Not to hijack the thread, but for those of you who are interested, here is a photo of one of the parents. Mary Fennell that I was fortunate to score on eBay. from a woman who got it from Fennell’s Orchid Jungle in the 80’s before Hurricane Andrew destroyed it. It is clean. The other parent C. trianae ‘B’.must have been amazing, too!

it. View attachment 51481

So you have a division of ‘Cashen’s’ and ‘Mary Fennell’! Well done.