Cattleya trianae ('Hernando Garcia' x 'Cashen's')

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This is the first bloom of my plant from an Orchids Limited cross. The horizontal dimension of the flower is about 13.0 cm.

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Cattleya trianae ‘Hernando Garcia’ is a sangre de toro-type, which usually translates as “blood of the bull,” indicating its darker rubra color than the typical trianae. Experts also expect size and shape differences in a sangre de toro trianae. The following Slippertalk chain describes these differences and has several excellent pictures of ‘Hernando Garcia.’

https://www.slippertalk.com/threads/cattleya-trianae-and-the-term-sangre-de-toro.54315/

Cattleya trianae ‘Cashen’s’ is a well-known, large, maybe tetraploid trianae cultivar that received an FCC/AOS in 2005. For reference, here is the image accompanying the AOS award in 2005.

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The hope with this cross was probably for flowers with ‘Hernando Garcia’ coloration and ‘Cashen’s’ shape and size. However, desirable orchid traits are often the result of multiple genes or a fortunate pairing of recessive genes. In these cases, the trait is difficult or impossible to pass to offspring. Self-crossings of these plants may not replicate unique features.

Unsurprisingly, my plant did not receive either the sangre de toro coloration of ‘Hernando Garcia’ or 'Cashen's' flower size and shape. The shuffling of the genes moved most things into the middle. A larger, more mature plant might modestly increase the flower size and reduce the “windows” between the petals and the sepals. Still, I think this will always be a “tipo” trianae with some pincelada of the petals.

I think some experienced breeders know whether the sangre de toro coloration of “Hernando Garcia” or the size/shape of ‘Cashen’s’ transmit to offspring frequently, seldom, or never. I don’t think the most essential information about breeding traits is publicly available. Our naïve ideas about a cross between two lovely plants will often be wrong, and many crosses may not be worth the time and effort.
 
Agreed Terry, it looks like the cross but not maybe the top end from it.
I suspect there will be few to no plants that can match the coloration of ‘Hernando Garcia’. There are at least 11 different genes influencing carotenoids in Cattleya and 4 different anthocyanin genes. ‘Hernando Garcia’ would be very dependent on all 4 of the anthocyanin genes firing and as soon as it breeds, you lose this concentration and the color moderates. I know that selfings of ‘Cashen’s’ have turned out very well, so the size/shape genes may transmit more readily but I think the drag of “Hernando Garcia’ size and shape will prevent most from coming to close to ‘Cashen’s’ in size or shape.
 
So I don't know when you flowered this trianae but for me in Toronto, Sangre de Toro "Hernado Garcia", div. from SVO years ago, flowers at Christmas and Cashens near the end of Feb. Your plant has a very nice lip, but the petal form is not what one would expect. The pronounced midline of the petals is distracting. I can see that this cross was intriguing but did not meet expectations. I have flowered another Sangre de Toro from Dr. Leslie Ee, and found that his clone is difficult to flower and never has more than 1 flower per inflorescence. I would definitely recommend the HG clone as it flowers well and is a prolific grower, and is always the first to flower for the trianae season. I would also much recommend the Cashens clone and not the (Cashens x self) which is good but seldom comes close to an original division. Cheers , my HG div. below.
 

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So I don't know when you flowered this trianae but for me in Toronto, Sangre de Toro "Hernado Garcia", div. from SVO years ago, flowers at Christmas and Cashens near the end of Feb. Your plant has a very nice lip, but the petal form is not what one would expect. The pronounced midline of the petals is distracting. I can see that this cross was intriguing but did not meet expectations. I have flowered another Sangre de Toro from Dr. Leslie Ee, and found that his clone is difficult to flower and never has more than 1 flower per inflorescence. I would definitely recommend the HG clone as it flowers well and is a prolific grower, and is always the first to flower for the trianae season. I would also much recommend the Cashens clone and not the (Cashens x self) which is good but seldom comes close to an original division. Cheers , my HG div. below.
I was surprised this bloomed now when none of my other trianae plants show any bud rise. I agree that the problem is the petals. My 'Cashen's' selfing has good size and pronounced flamea pattern, but the petals are not as full as 'Cashen's'. As I noted above, many selfing crosses of unique plants will miss the mark because of the gene shuffling that occurs. Anything that is multigenic or caused by recessive genes will rarely come through in the offspring. Even a mericlone can miss the mark!
 
Until Dr.Leslie started having me grow some of his trianae, I simply had some albas and coerulea as these are some color forms I most appreciate for home decor. A huge lesson in orchids is that the quality bar is always being raised, and as growers we benefit from it. It is always difficult to move on from some favourites but I have mastered this by being very pragmatic with growing space knowing one square foot is worth $100 per anum. Any trianae that we feel is exceptional will be bred and the progeny hopefully will be an advancement in quality. Below are three trianae flowered this year, 2 have been awarded and the coerulea perhaps next year as it has not been shown yet. Divisions are also possible, but for that ask Leslie. Cheers
 

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Until Dr.Leslie started having me grow some of his trianae, I simply had some albas and coerulea as these are some color forms I most appreciate for home decor. A huge lesson in orchids is that the quality bar is always being raised, and as growers we benefit from it. It is always difficult to move on from some favourites but I have mastered this by being very pragmatic with growing space knowing one square foot is worth $100 per anum. Any trianae that we feel is exceptional will be bred and the progeny hopefully will be an advancement in quality. Below are three trianae flowered this year, 2 have been awarded and the coerulea perhaps next year as it has not been shown yet. Divisions are also possible, but for that ask Leslie. Cheers
The shape of those three flowers is outstanding. I know there could be a preference for the original very open shape seen with most wild-collected plants, but my limited space collection has to favor the more round, closed form. I need the courage to replace old plants with new.
 
I was surprised this bloomed now when none of my other trianae plants show any bud rise. I agree that the problem is the petals. My 'Cashen's' selfing has good size and pronounced flamea pattern, but the petals are not as full as 'Cashen's'. As I noted above, many selfing crosses of unique plants will miss the mark because of the gene shuffling that occurs. Anything that is multigenic or caused by recessive genes will rarely come through in the offspring. Even a mericlone can miss the mark!
I have some pretty reliable fall/winter whites in bloom right now during peak summer, when we’re in our 3rd straight week of 90F/32C temps….sometimes these plants just march to their own drums…
 
This is the first bloom of my plant from an Orchids Limited cross. The horizontal dimension of the flower is about 13.0 cm.

View attachment 48308

Cattleya trianae ‘Hernando Garcia’ is a sangre de toro-type, which usually translates as “blood of the bull,” indicating its darker rubra color than the typical trianae. Experts also expect size and shape differences in a sangre de toro trianae. The following Slippertalk chain describes these differences and has several excellent pictures of ‘Hernando Garcia.’

https://www.slippertalk.com/threads/cattleya-trianae-and-the-term-sangre-de-toro.54315/

Cattleya trianae ‘Cashen’s’ is a well-known, large, maybe tetraploid trianae cultivar that received an FCC/AOS in 2005. For reference, here is the image accompanying the AOS award in 2005.

View attachment 48309

The hope with this cross was probably for flowers with ‘Hernando Garcia’ coloration and ‘Cashen’s’ shape and size. However, desirable orchid traits are often the result of multiple genes or a fortunate pairing of recessive genes. In these cases, the trait is difficult or impossible to pass to offspring. Self-crossings of these plants may not replicate unique features.

Unsurprisingly, my plant did not receive either the sangre de toro coloration of ‘Hernando Garcia’ or 'Cashen's' flower size and shape. The shuffling of the genes moved most things into the middle. A larger, more mature plant might modestly increase the flower size and reduce the “windows” between the petals and the sepals. Still, I think this will always be a “tipo” trianae with some pincelada of the petals.

I think some experienced breeders know whether the sangre de toro coloration of “Hernando Garcia” or the size/shape of ‘Cashen’s’ transmit to offspring frequently, seldom, or never. I don’t think the most essential information about breeding traits is publicly available. Our naïve ideas about a cross between two lovely plants will often be wrong, and many crosses may not be worth the time and effort.
This is the first bloom of my plant from an Orchids Limited cross. The horizontal dimension of the flower is about 13.0 cm.

View attachment 48308

Cattleya trianae ‘Hernando Garcia’ is a sangre de toro-type, which usually translates as “blood of the bull,” indicating its darker rubra color than the typical trianae. Experts also expect size and shape differences in a sangre de toro trianae. The following Slippertalk chain describes these differences and has several excellent pictures of ‘Hernando Garcia.’

https://www.slippertalk.com/threads/cattleya-trianae-and-the-term-sangre-de-toro.54315/

Cattleya trianae ‘Cashen’s’ is a well-known, large, maybe tetraploid trianae cultivar that received an FCC/AOS in 2005. For reference, here is the image accompanying the AOS award in 2005.

View attachment 48309

The hope with this cross was probably for flowers with ‘Hernando Garcia’ coloration and ‘Cashen’s’ shape and size. However, desirable orchid traits are often the result of multiple genes or a fortunate pairing of recessive genes. In these cases, the trait is difficult or impossible to pass to offspring. Self-crossings of these plants may not replicate unique features.

Unsurprisingly, my plant did not receive either the sangre de toro coloration of ‘Hernando Garcia’ or 'Cashen's' flower size and shape. The shuffling of the genes moved most things into the middle. A larger, more mature plant might modestly increase the flower size and reduce the “windows” between the petals and the sepals. Still, I think this will always be a “tipo” trianae with some pincelada of the petals.

I think some experienced breeders know whether the sangre de toro coloration of “Hernando Garcia” or the size/shape of ‘Cashen’s’ transmit to offspring frequently, seldom, or never. I don’t think the most essential information about breeding traits is publicly available. Our naïve ideas about a cross between two lovely plants will often be wrong, and many crosses may not be worth the time and effort.
I agree your plant is pretty squarely in the middle of both parents, but I don’t think that’s surprising. If there are recessive genes at play, I wouldn’t expect those to come through in the first generation. The next step would be to perform a sibling cross of the best two offspring, or do a selfing as you suggest, or even a backcross to one of the parents if something with one of the desired traits bloomed out in this generation. I think a good breeder has a goal, but this cross probably represents just a first step in getting there. It’s going to take a few more generations to really get those rubras with Cashen’s form. Anyway, I hope you keep it, or re-home it, that lip is stunning!
 

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