K
Kavanaru
Guest
:clap::clap::clap::clap:
CITES amendment
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I know,but its not so far from reality...
Can be true...but the problem is to use a "clever way" to do things.I've been in Kalimantan and Dayaks collect only few plants when are needed and not all plants even if there is no request.
In the case of "medicine"...limit number means all the plants around and still not enought....
Someway you are right,but I think the big problem is not the foreigner or the local that order or buy plants and export them(usually the foreigner buy from local that have planed collecting of orchids to do money and mostly all times have searched and attracted foreigners to do money).
The problem is "building the value of plants". and so try to build knowledge and colture about them as a valuable resource and so protect and produce them,choosing in the wild only the best ones.(finish this later a the end of the post).
I understand and so you know that those peoples dont care about it.
I am absolutely not angry about you...take it easy ....This is a good way to discuss this difficult situations and examin the different point of view.The only way to find solutions is talk about things and thinks.
Your english is good.
Susan y're right.
In my opinion the big problem is the bad management of resources.CITES is only Burocracy.(Money is done buy the ones who have permits and they want to be the only ones many times).
If money will be put by CITES and local governments to promote real plants production in this countries,and to promote knowledge about the real value of them,local peoples and exporters/importers,will act in different way,try to have only High quality production and not bulk unknown cheap quality plants.
Every one that want to do Paph breeding knows that a mountain full of Paphs will do the work that you will do in 1000 years in a gigantic greenhouse if well managed....but peoples must know about it,and in those situation ignorance dominate....
So...who will push governments and CITES to build a program of real in/ex situ research/production in a "world wide way"?(the new plants www)...
Regards
B
biothanasis
Guest
I think that you all are right about every topic! The thing is that both local people have a nice way to make a living (I mean plants/culture/conservation etc) and the environment should be treated as home and not as dollars, euro, gbp etc!!!
We know what is wrong, we know that people should be able to earn money, we know that the environment should be sustainable (as it is the only home we have....).
But, what do we do about it? What we can do about it??? I think govs, locals, scientists etc have "started renovating the roof in order to strengthen the base of a house"!!!!!
We know what is wrong, we know that people should be able to earn money, we know that the environment should be sustainable (as it is the only home we have....).
But, what do we do about it? What we can do about it??? I think govs, locals, scientists etc have "started renovating the roof in order to strengthen the base of a house"!!!!!
I think it is more of a general behavior in Vietnam and China those days.
In fact, to explain the complete channel of wild collected orchids:
- The minorities, H'Mong mostly, but to a lesser extent Thai people, collect a lot of things, plants, animals, fungi, etc... from the forest. They go to the nearest 'trader' to sell what they have. At this step, the price is usually half a dollar to a dollar a kilogram of plants, orchids, others, whatever...
- The 'trader' has pending order, permanent, for as many orchids as he can get. One part comes from the medicinal trade, because the requirements by this medicinal trade are to collect as many plants as possible, with no upper limit. As an example, the pending order, as per the Chinese that I met last week, of dendrobium strongylanthum is up to 10 tons per year, this means 10.000 kg. So this trade is is the most destructive of all. At this stage, the price is from a few USD to 70-100USD for the rarer items.
- Some Vietnamese people in Hanoi area specialize in selling orchids to the foreigners, or to the south - mostly Da Lat. They make pending orders, and ask their countryside suppliers to store as many plants as possible of the interesting items, mostly Paphiopedilum those days. People in Cao Bang must have a stock ready, as per the Hanoi people request of Paph., emersonii, helenae and tranlienianum all the time. When Hanoi people order, it must be delivered within a day or two, by the next bus preferably, but not later. If it is not sold, it is nothing, because the Cao Bang traders pay about half a dollar to a dollar to the minorities the tranlienianum, a big bag will be 20-30USD, maybe 50.
- In Hanoi, many are in big debt with the countryside people, because they order, get, and get many and many boxes of jungle plants that are never sold and die in Hanoi. If you go to Hanoi II - formerly Ha Tay, you can see at the very present time thousands of paph. tranlienianum on the ground, watered with tap water, heavily contaminated by phytophthora, and dying. If course, they will not sell a single plant of that, so it is lost money.
- At the Lunar New Year time, Hanoi people get a lot of phalaenopsis from China - the production of Phalaenopsis in the North is nearly non existant. They pay about a dollar a plant in spike, with 1 flower open. They will send those to clear the past year's debt with their suppliers, of course at 3-4 USD about - 50-70000VND/plant.
So basically, the traders from Hanoi pay for each kilogram of tranlienianum less than a dollar, just because they will exchange. With that value, they are not willing to make any propagation, or stocks management, because it is plainly useless. And, having a tissue culture lab in Hanoi, I cannot make at all, and never, 200 paph tranlienianum plants for 1USD/200 plants. This is NOT going to happen anytime soon.
Now, the market for the medicinal plant is huge, use all the known species, and there is no upper limit to the quantities required. The Chinese have many, many pending orders. They even got CITES permits a couple years ago for some metric tons of wild collected dendrobium, you can check www.cites.org the database of trade. The amounts are highly impressive...
What they call dendrobium nobile is unknown to us...
As for the local species of orchids and their export, pretty much everything has been exported over the years with CITES, or with a phyto for the flasks. This opened the door to have everything from Vietnam legally, except the Paphiopedilum, and even so, some paph helenae flasks released in Japan were completely legal, with parents collected with a collecting permit about 10 years ago.
The orders for medecine are clear: NO LIMIT. That's one of the major problems at present time, even if they try to hide the problem. The traders never want to speak about it openly in Hanoi, of course, but if you go to the countryside, they do not care that much, and explain, and show the bags of jungle plants as a proof, how massive is this trade. Have a look at the tons of medicinal orchids exported with a CITES from Vietnam at www.cites.org. China is not in that database, they prefer to ship by truck, and anyway dendrobium nobile in bulk is not covered by CITES anymore officially...
The key problem at present time, there are only traders in the north so far, no one grows any plant, and no one dares to propagate the plants at present time, in the north. The reasons are several, but the keypoint, the traders put money on the table, then they get money from their customers. It does not disturb them if some species are not available anymore, there are others to collect.
The balance to understand, some species would be extinct permanently in a way if they were not propagated outside of Vietnam. Even Dalat orders huge quantities of paphs from the north, and other species, just to establish them, grow them, and a fair amount goes to the local pot-plant trade, or to the dustbin. I don't know how many paphiopedilum vietnamenese are in cultivation in Vietnam, but from the original wild plants I would guess, at the commercial growers places, less than 50 all over Vietnam. The seedlings, a few dozens, and that's all.
About educating the people to grow the plants, with their thinking that it is a trade, and not a work, it is pretty much hopeless, at least in the north.
The other thing, they play with each other a lot. A box of 20kg of coccineum can travel between the Hanoi traders for a couple of weeks, 50.000VND/kg, sold 55.000VND/kg, exchanged for a value of 60.000VND/kg with the next one...
Case 1:
- The trader calls his supplier, who asks the H'Mong to collect Paphiopedilum coccineum in Phong Tho. The trader will pay 100USD for 20-50kg depending on the market price at that time. He can hope to sell it quickly. If coccineum is not available anymore, he has a customer for Phalaenopsis stobartiana or dendrobium falconeri for medicinal trade. Easy, fast money. He can pass some hybrids phals to pay the plants later.
Case 2:
- The trader wants to grow orchids, he has to invest in pots, potting mix, fertilizer, seedlings, and wait a couple of years to have art propagated plants for sale. He has to put real money on the table to grow the plants, not exchange with phalaenopsis themselves exchanged for jungle plants. He will never want to do that, because the cash has a slower turnover. If he has enough money, he will invest in boxes of jungle plants, and double his money every couple of days. Last, he does not have the knowledge or skill to grow orchids, and do not want to waste his time learning. He is a businessman, not a 'nha que' (their words) to pot plants and do like a farmer - I have heard that one many times, believe me -. Many of those 'businessmen' who trade orchids in the north have no consideration for people who grow them, because it is 'dirty'. Period.
Based on that, I don't know how the future will be for the propagation of orchids in Vietnam, but with such attitude, and the ample requests of the medicinal trade, I don't think anyone will feel the need to propagate something on the verge of extinction, because there is plenty of money to do with others species. As long as there will be one species commercially interesting in the North, it is hopeless to teach them or tell them about propagation.
They are not even aware about the value of selected orchids, at least, they are, but they still do not see the need to grow seedlings, because their money is blocked. The keypoint is: the orchid traders do not want to block their money more than a few days. Growing orchids must be paid with hard cash, buying jungle plants can be paid with phalaenopsis in spike at the Tet time, and those phalaenopsis can be paid with some of the jungle plants. No money loss, and only pure profit, or nearly so...
You are right to try, but I think most do not care at all. They live carpe diem, and based on that, except maybe one or two individuals, they will never try to follow another scheme than the one they have been taught, buy at 10.000VND, resell at 50.000VND. Furthermore, the countryside people rely on the Hanoi traders to sell their plants, and in Hanoi no one is willing to pay the right price for propagated or nursery grown plants from the countryside people.
B
biothanasis
Guest
It sounds like an RPG game...!!! TY for the info Sand... it is kind of shocking from both sides...!
What's interesting about the U.S. amendment is the question: If the other countries accept the amendment, what are they going to do with all the flasked plants that have been legal in Europe and everywhere else in the world? Do these plants suddenly become illegal? For the rest of the world, the cat's already out of the bag. Does the U.S. expect everyone else to try and stuff the cat back in?
E
Ernie
Guest
Well put, Ross. That about bottom lines it.
-Ernie
-Ernie
It is a bit more complicated, according to the national laws of each country.
But the plants will be stuck for sure anyway in the countries they are, means that the hangianum x godefroyae from Taiwan that they sent to Canada, and their progeny will not be exportable to the USA, or even back to Taiwan as an example.
Some countries will maybe ask for people to surrender the said plants, most will accept those plants as legal, but prohibit anything from only their trade to their propagation, to... I have seen that in the Netherlands, where it happened some years ago with paph. helenae. The art propagated plants were still legal to keep, but prohibited from being used for propagation or breeding, period...
The main question, who will win in that ? And the answer is highly interesting.
Mainland China.
They 'discovered' about every Vietnamese paph species like hangianum, coccineum, delenatii, vietnamense... in China. At least some scientists that are very influent and have very strong ties to some Chinese traders.
So, to sum it up, China will have, quite soon, the monopoly for the Vietnamese paph species, because the country will have officially declared that those species were found in China at least once.
smartie2000
Well-Known Member
This is really stupid.... prevention of propagation! Well that just inherently means more imporation of wild plants to fulfull some peoples desires. At least we can get hangianum seedlings here in Canada that are from flask (i.e. not from the wild) if we choose. Don't they dare make these flasks illegal as that is just counter protective of wild populations. The united states tend to influence us greatly and hopefully this amendment won't be put into place in Canada.
Yes, but if I am not wrong, and I am rarely when it comes to legal matters, the progeny of those seedlings will not be legal to export, this part is absolutely sure, but if they want to make it more 'rigid', not legal to sell or even to make...
There is a lot of things that I cannot explain on this forum, but plant and animal propagation is a matter of politics, not that much a matter of conservation.
As for the USA, they were right at first to ban the flasks and such of new species, because they had no other choice. They have been forced to do so, because indeed the parents of those flasks are illegal and some people forced the FWS to 'see' that those parents are illegals, so are the flasks produced with 'stolen property'.
It is a little bit like if you are parking 2 minutes at a forbidden place, there is a police officer, that does not care and understands that you are going to leave in 2 minutes.
Suddenly you have a guy with a camera screaming and shouting like hell at the policeman, threatening to get a video to his chiefs that he did not give you a fine even if you were doing something illegal, etc...
Even if the police officer does not care, because it is unimportant, he MUST give you a fine for those 2 min of parking, or he will have big problems, maybe he will be fired, because he broke the law too by not fining you. Maybe he accepted to have sexual intercourse with you the day before so he would not fine you, maybe you paid him a nickel, who knows... But the movie would be a proof that maybe he is corrupted. To avoid that, he has to read the law perfectly well, and do exactly by the law with you.
Now the cameraman can go to smoke some pot at the corner of the street and trash some cars with a shotgun, it is of no concern if no one can prove it.
Sum up: When the officials are forced to see, they are forced to act, no matter how dumb it is and no matter who force them to see.
Sigh...if only we could, as a planet, put aside our stupid politics and idiotic laws, we could accomplish the most amazing things! Drop the restrictions, prohibitions and penalties adherent to the possession and propagation of these scarce species which are already in existence outside of their natural native habitats. Why should we care at this point if a rare endangered Paph plant living today in Canada, Sweden, or USA is or is not legal?! We should be grateful it still exists and that it's alive! We are wasting our resources by enforcing the laws outside of Vietnam as long as it remains impossible to enforce conservation and preservation laws within Vietnam. Instead we could be implementing vigorous and intelligent breeding and production programs around the world to vastly increase the numbers of these endangered plants in existence. Some could be reintroduced to the wild, some could be sold to collectors, and some could be placed in protective custodial conservatories. Certainly we have the knowledge and technology to develop methods of mass production while maintaining low environmental impact in order to feed the everpresent demands of traditional Chinese medicine as well. Jobs would be created. Hobbyists would be happy. Conservationists would be happy. Our ecosystem would benefit. Biodiversity would be maintained and these plants would no longer be endangered.
But of course, this is not the way of humanity. My way of thinking is simplistic, idealistic and not realistic. I might even be seen as stupid for suggesting such radical ideas. Why suggest something good when no one will ever lift a finger to make it happen? There will be countless excuses why this situation cannot be changed for the better. I know only too well that mankind cannot and will not rise above it all and finally do the right thing. We will debate these issues ad infinitum. We will bicker and fight, place blame and make excuses, regulate and legislate, violate and bend the rules, sneak and smuggle, buy and sell, horde and destroy, steal and trade, prosecute and vilify, and we will continue to be motivated by either greed or by fear and self-preservation. Meanwhile our morals suffer, our intercultural relations sour, and the environment and our natural resources will all continue to go to hell. Collectively we are worse than a monkey who can't get his fist out of a jar because he won't let go of the nut he is holding onto. The shame of it all makes me wish I were a dog or a cat or just about anything else rather than a human being. I feel guilty for even owning a Stereochilus dalatensis, and I'm enormously grateful at this point that I don't have a single Paph in my collection.
But of course, this is not the way of humanity. My way of thinking is simplistic, idealistic and not realistic. I might even be seen as stupid for suggesting such radical ideas. Why suggest something good when no one will ever lift a finger to make it happen? There will be countless excuses why this situation cannot be changed for the better. I know only too well that mankind cannot and will not rise above it all and finally do the right thing. We will debate these issues ad infinitum. We will bicker and fight, place blame and make excuses, regulate and legislate, violate and bend the rules, sneak and smuggle, buy and sell, horde and destroy, steal and trade, prosecute and vilify, and we will continue to be motivated by either greed or by fear and self-preservation. Meanwhile our morals suffer, our intercultural relations sour, and the environment and our natural resources will all continue to go to hell. Collectively we are worse than a monkey who can't get his fist out of a jar because he won't let go of the nut he is holding onto. The shame of it all makes me wish I were a dog or a cat or just about anything else rather than a human being. I feel guilty for even owning a Stereochilus dalatensis, and I'm enormously grateful at this point that I don't have a single Paph in my collection.
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SlipperFan
Addicted
I don't look at it that way. I'm very happy to have the orchids I have in my collection. They were made available to me legally, and I am doing my best to keep them alive and healthy. Who knows what will happen to all the orchids in the wild anymore. While I think we should all do what we can to preserve natural habitat (like donate to orchid conservation), and I think CITES is not helpful for flora and should be changed, I'm living in the world as it is now. And I hope I'm doing the best I can in it.
This is because you are more wise and unflappable than me... :wink:
...whereas I
(<<< that's me) get easily upset at the absurdity of it all and soon begin to feel quite hopeless.
That's true. The main problem being that Vietnam shares a very large border with China on one side, so smuggling is a child play.
Actually we don't have the technology, because it would require to produce some hundred thousands plants, grow them, and harvest them, for a very cheap price of few dollars a kg, to some dozen US/kg. I can tell you that 1 kg of dendrobium gregulus is around 300 plants, let's say 100USD sales price to China - that's the price the Chinese buys, but the Vietnamese traders would not pay more than 5 US/kg to the minorities. Who would be willing to grow some tons of dendrobium gregulus for 0.3US/plant? No one. And if one thinks about supplying the suppliers of wild orchids for the traditionnal medecine, I discussed with them, they are VERY clear. If someone try to touch their market by propagating or offering to the Chinese directly, they can drop the price to a few US/kg to kill that competitor.
Paph. helenae new growth is sold at the very present time USD 20/kg, this week price, because it's the season, so the prices are down right now. They go up during the wet season, as it is more difficult to collect the plants. Only the new, mature, unbloomed growth. It makes for 1kg about 500 of them.
Do you really think in this world anyone is willing to grow and sell half a thousand helenae for 20US? And it is not 1kg we are talking about, but several bags of 40kg of new growths. The remaining of the plant is discarded, so are the roots.
The key problem to keep in mind, there is NO legal way in this world to supply the medicinal trade legally with propagated plants. The prices are too cheap, and one would have to give away a lot of money for that purpose. The quantities required would need some millions plants to be grown just to take the new growth and destroy them after, of maybe 50 different species.
The nursery should be very huge, and with considerable financial losses just to 'save the plants in the wild'. When there would be no more sponsor, they would just go and collect in the jungle whatever remains. We can delay the outcome of this story of a few years, 2-3, maybe 5, by investing huge amount of money. But the outcome, in 10 years from now : NO MORE PLANTS IN THE JUNGLE. There is nothing that can be done, not even regulations or law enforcement. The profit is high enough, if the police catch up a network, and the Vietnam police did several times, 20 will appear immediately. When they blocked the helenae exports last year for a month from Cao Bang area, as soon as they did not block, all the trucks went to deliver the helenae for medicinal trade. They spent considerable amount of time, did not find anything, because most of the storages are in eagle nest position, they can see the road as far as 5-10km, made the price increase because of the 'risk', and that's it.
This is really the problem with orchid poaching at present time. And Chinese, as well as to a lower extent Koreans, do the same in Laos and Burma, extensively. In Burma, they even got a permit to collect for medicinal trade huge amounts, so there it is legal to strip everything.
That's why the only way today to save all those species is probably to make the trade free for all orchid species. There will be many in private collections, that could be propagated (and selected) freely. When the plants almost (or completely) disappear in nature they remain in collections... maybe one (very far!!) day could some of the children return to the saved forest (if enough genetic diversity remains for they survive)
That is at present time the only way. Many people do not understand the following
- Smuggling, for the medicine trade or for the hobby trade is IMPOSSIBLE to stop, at any cost, no matter what is done. The outcome can be delayed, but never stopped.There are dozen of ways to smuggle things in and out, and dozen of networks.
- The deforestation is going on too. Even in Vietnam, they are logging, clearing a lot of land for the rice. In Sarawak, they made a road at the base of many mountains, that actually cleared a small path in the forest, but enough to get winds to dry up the area, and make a complete draining of the forest that is above the road, extending slowly but steadily up to the top of the mountains.
- The other problem, there are not many good growers, and not many people will follow those growers after they die, in 1 year or 60 years. From that onwards, it is likely that some species will disappear forever, from culture and from the wild, in the next 50-100 years, most likely earlier.
- 'propagating is conserving the species'. How many times did I hear that. It is unfortunately partially ********. propagating is delaying an outcome that we know will happen sooner or later for many species. How many plants from the 70's, 80's and 90's are still alive? How many gave progeny that is still here with us today? A dime out of the whole.
Of course, I see people coming with the rothschildianum story, blabla, seedlings. Rothschildianum is no big deal, easy to grow, wild plants easy to establish too, easy to sow, easy to raise, easy to breed.
Sanderianum from the 80's ? Nearly no progeny around, and none of the new seedlings come from those plants at all.
Argus, ciliolare, curtisii, etc... ? Nearly no progeny from the dozen of thousands of plants collected from 1900 until 1990. No progeny at all even for ciliolare, the few flasks done here and there are made with more recent plants.
The delenatii original plant? Disappearing, there may be some seedlings left here and there, a couple divisions, some plants at hobbyists place, most of it has been replaced by the new delenatii and its progeny.
Many other species, such as phal maculata, etc... have been collected by the thousands. I have seen maybe 3000 seedgrown Phalaenopsis maculata in bloom at the orchid zone in 1996. None alive today nowhere, and none gave any progeny or seedlings as far as I know.
I think that conservation by propagation will succeed for maybe 2-3% of the species on a 20 years lifespan, maybe 2-3 per thousand over 100 years, but in 500 years, I seriously doubt there will be many paph species around in cultivation or in the wild.
Just look carefully at the history of orchid species, and orchid hybrids. Most of what was available from 1900 until 2000 disappeared in the orchid heaven. A couple nurseries have mother plants from before 1990, but it's peanuts compared to the wide range of species that have been introduced in cultivation over the last 20 years. As of today, it is still possible to get jungle plants to make seedlings, but when there will be no more in the jungle, it will be gone-gone. Don't think ever that there are f2 of many paph species. There are F2 from the wild of maybe 20 species out of the whole genus. And paphs are a much smaller problem compared to other species.
Dendrobium senile, trigonopus scabrilingue? None from seed.
In the significant case, take dendrobium scabrilingue, the old plants with the dark orange-red lip. Thousands were collected, I even remember flasks 10 years ago. Now it is impossible to find. For the people who have less knowledge, there is still dendrobium scabrilingue available in the trade, so the species is not 'extinct'. For others, they will realize that despite thousands of den. scabrilingue collected with the red lip, and flasks distributed, it disappeared.
The same applies to Phalaenopsis appendiculata. Periodically there is a shortage of phal appendiculata flasks, and the flasks usually come from jungle seed caps sold by Malaysia... Hourai has sold thousands of seedlings, young plants, and blooming size plants, but few remain alive in this world.
Or take the phalaenopsis lowii blue. I have seen those plants, and the albinos too, in bloom at Krairit in Bangkok. Hundreds of flasks were made. How many of its progeny or of the original plants are alive today ? None. Only the hybrid with doritis pulcherrima blue x lowii blue remains, and not many plants around...
Those are living proof that conservation through propagation does not work. We have lost thousands of strains, both hybrids - though not that much in paphs, but think about the cattleyas, phals, etc... - and species. I do not see any reason why it will not happen with the entire species.
I think the worst problem will be with things like sanderianum or ooii. Those species need to be collected again periodically from the wild to have mature plants for propagation, except in a very few nurseries.
Another thing that is very clear, take some specific cultivars, like lawrenceanum hyeanum, curtisii sanderae, callosum sanderae. They are, at the very present time, completely lost in cultivation. Nowhere in this world have we a real lawrenceanum album, even if that plant was alive from the XIXth century until 1997 - I don't know if Tom Kalina still has his plant ? - Curtisii sanderae is completely gone, and callosum sanderae, I know of 1 plant in a private collection in Europe, genuine. All gave at a time or another, a lot of seedlings through selfings, but all of those are gone too. Those 3 varieties are therefore nearly extinct in cultivation, and soon completely lost forever.
For those who wonder how a scabrilingue should look like, here is a picture of a pale one compared to the original 'Royal Strain'. Imagine a much darker orange-red color of the lip, and you get a picture about what we have lost forever in cultivation.
paphioboy
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Wow! I didn't know dend scabrilingue has an orange lip.. most pictures I've seen show blooms with greenish lips..
You've made my point exactly, Sanderianum. There are a million reasons why this situation will never improve, and every single one of them is because mankind as a whole is unreliable, irresponsible, and hopelessly driven by greed, ignorance and a lack of willingness to change. We will throw every excuse and every reason into why it is not possible to save these rare plants instead of being proactive and creative and finding ways to make it happen. If mankind really truly wanted to solve this problem, we could. The stakes are simply not high enough to motivate us to do it. Greed rules the world. The few who are willing to try are smothered by those who are not. It would be easier to organize flamethrower expeditions into the wetlands and forests than to do something positive and constructive.
E
etex
Guest
Wow! A very thought-provoking and informative thread! Can more be done to create conservation areas in the orchids natural habitats so we do not loose them in the wild? I spent 16 years naturalizing as many plants as possible in our 10 acres of land and it is rewarding to know that the plants will live on after I am gone.
Useless for two reasons...
- When the species become rare, who cares about conservation areas and such? They will be poached from there, that's it. As they become rare, they are more valuable, and therefore the risk to collect them is more affordable.
- A stable environment is required, and at present time no place in this world is safe. In Tam Dao, a big hill collapsed during a landslide, wiping out all the gratrixianum daoense last year. End of the story. And it was predictible, as they cleared some trees down. Preserving a few hills is useless, because the humidity will drop if the hills nearby are cleared for whatever purpose. To preserve plants in the wild requires huge areas to be completely protected, and it is simply impossible to protect them from the minorities. I have witnessed Iban in Borneo, and H'Mongs in Phong Tho climbing and coming down at light speed hills and outcrops. If they decided to collected in a protected area - and many do - they can go in and out, the police would still be investigating if they entered, where actually they would have finished the job long time ago and be back home.
And there is another reason, a very weird one... The area where Paph. hangianum grows as an example is extremely, extremely well documented at the beginning of the 20th century, including some inconspicuous liparis, and even villosum.
How the hell those people who made many expeditions could have missed hangianum at that time? For sure because hangianum was not here at that time, and maybe because hangianum did not exist yet... I am not crazy, just thinking to find a logical explanation, and that's the only one that comes to mind.
Some species could have evolved much, much faster than we can think of. The same applies for quite a few orchid species. Area prospected for many years a century ago, and we just find out a new species here.
I got a case in point. Lilium poilanei, endemic to Sa Pa area. The samples and herbariums specimens show a flower that is very distinctive, and there are several herbarium specimens, several line drawings, a couple paintings, and several detailed description fron the early 20th century. Yes, there are dozen of thousands of lilium growing in the original locations mentioned a hundred years ago. Except that they are not poilanei, they are clearly... lilium nepalense. Either half a dozen different, unrelated people a hundred years ago were completely blind and described the outside of the flower as red, made fake herbarium specimens, fake descriptions... or a hundred years ago this lilium colony was like that, and now it has evolved in nepalense... Strange story isn't that ?
