cites appendix 1

[s1214215]

I got onto Fisheries and Wildlife and the contact there is going to email me back about this. So that will be great to get it in email form and also to have a contact there. She is speaking to a plant imports specialist there for me. Hopefully this will clear some matters and to verify its ok from their end too.

Brett

 

[gonewild]

I got onto Fisheries and Wildlife and the contact there is going to email me back about this. So that will be great to get it in email form and also to have a contact there. She is speaking to a plant imports specialist there for me. Hopefully this will clear some matters and to verify its ok from their end too.

Brett

I will send you the name and phone number for the biologist in charge of CITES enforcement for the USA, that way you can speak with the top person.
Check you PMs.

 

[s1214215]

Thanks Lance

I appreciate this a lot.. Getting onto the right people is the hardest thing when you are not native to a country.

I am still waiting on the email from F & W.

Brett

 

[gonewild]

Hi Lance

I actually called CITES in the USA and they said it was ok for Paph thaianum in flask. Two people at USDA have given a verbal ok. What is F&W? I really want to make sure I am doing the right thing before I go ahead sending.

I will have a read of the link you added. Thanks Lance.

Do I need to send this flask with a CITES document to say at my end it is propagated? I know the CITES people here in Bangkok well enough. A flask of thaianum I just sent to Japan was visually inspected here and OKed by one of CITES Bangkok's chief officers to go. When I asked if I needed a cert from CITES to send to the USA, they said no. You only need a phyto cert that states "artificially propagated" on it. Which is what happened on the cert that went with the flask.

To be honest if I could just get the right people in the USA to give me the info that would be great. So far I have talked to USDA (plant imports) and CITES, but giving the green light to go. If I need to get the OK from anyone else, who would that be?

Brett

The only time you need CITES documents from the origin is when the species is restricted by CITES. Because the species are artificially propagated and in vitro they are not restricted by CITES so you do not need CITES papers. You always need a phyto-sanitary certificate.

 

[gonewild]

.....And WHY(!) to they need the phyto certificate that is issued for flasks to state "artificially propagated"? Don't they know that orchid seedlings in flask do not occur naturally in-situ? Duh! Bureaucrats that can't tell their butt from their head make me sick.

If it says artificially propagated on the phyto cert then the inspector does not even have to open the box if he is in a hurry.

And someone could conceivably put a wild collected seedling in vitro to smuggle it through. So the statement is a guarantee from the foreign government that the palnt is not in violation of CITES or APHIS regulations.

 

[gonewild]

one other thing; for our recent aussie terrestrial order, the tubers were shipped using the australian national postal service to our u.s. postal service, and there was a need for those yellow and green stickers to be placed on the box so that the plants would go to the proper inspection station and then to the u.s. postal service. for flasks, do we need to use these colored stickers as well or what is the process for flasks to be inspected and shipped? if the carrier used from thailand is not a national postal service and is more like ups or fedex, what is the process needed to get these flasks from there to here? I had imported phals from australia to the u.s. a while back, but don't remember those details
thanks

For postal shipments you must use the yellow/green stickers. You can print them yourself or get extras from USDA. The stickers should have your permit number on them?

If you ship with a common carrier (ups, fedex, ect) you don't use the stickers. BUT you must have someone clear customs for the shipment. Fedex and UPS will provide this service but it is not free. Probably about $200 and will take longer than the postal service. The USPS provides the import service for free so for small shipments use the postal service.

 

[s1214215]

Thanks Lance

That was brilliant.. Craig is going to check on this for me. Over the phone he asked why did I think it was not possible to send Paph flasks to the USA? Interesting.. Well now I wait on his email reply. He is checking into if I can export thaianum, and moreover other paphs in flask.

Brett

 

[baodai]

Under the Lacey Act species from Vietnam would be considered as "illegal" because they have never been obtained from a legal source.

Under this quote from Lance, I think AOS, FCC, HCC ....etc ... is a joke. Just because they are supporting paph import from Vietnam by judging them. If you look at paph malipoense for example. If this paph is not obatained legally, then why these organizations supporting it ???
regards,
BD

 

[likespaphs]

...If you look at paph malipoense for example. If this paph is not obatained legally, then why these organizations supporting it ???
regards,
BD

i think it's because it pre-dates the enactment of cites

 

[NYEric]

Then why did Sam Tsui's plants get seized!?

 

[gonewild]

The issue is...
Was there ever a legal importation of the species before it was listed on CITES?

If there was then plants in possession could be from that importation and then would not be subject to CITES unless they are exported.

If there was not a legal import of the species before it was listed on CITES then possession could become an issue with some legality.

But CITES is about International trade and not possession so likely any plants confiscated were a result of some other infraction and not simple possession.

 

[s1214215]

Hi

Well it all seems OK for me to send now. USDA, CITES and F& W all say OK to go.

Interesting regarding the Vietnames species. However, hangianum exists in China, so has it ever been legally exported from there?

Still thaianum sounds ok to send.

"Dear Sir,

Thank you for your phone call. I have looked into the issue further and was not able to find any reason that we would deny the import of P. thaianum in sterile flasks, assuming that the parental stock were lawfully acquired and the flasked seedlings were artificially propagated as defined by CITES. It is my understanding that the Vietnamese species to which you referred has been denied import because the Vietnamese government has indicated that the species has never been lawfully exported from Vietnam.

I hope this answers your questions. If you have any other questions or were referring to a different species, please let me know.

Best,

Craig Hoover
Chief, Branch of Operations
USFWS Division of Management Authority"

Brett

 

[s1214215]

I want just a confirmation on this if anyone can chime in. USDA told me over the phone that you do not need an import permit if you are importing less than 12 flasks.

Also, I never use the proper USDA stickers and to date have never had any problems. I just make my own. I have sent about 25 shipments this way through the post. Mind you, all were big shipments and had an import permit.

Brett

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

I'm not sure that hangianum actually exists in China...I think it was mentioned here in a long ago thread that claims were being made about Vietnamese paphs being found in China so that they could get a CITES ok. As for what comes in without problems, any paph...Vietnamese or not..that was known in the US up until 1990 can make it through. So the newer delanatii's, while theoretically illegal to import, can still make it because delanatii has been here for decades.

 

[s1214215]

I just got confirmation on this. CITES (Thailand) has had added Paph thaianum (in flask) to the Dept of Agriculture, Phytosanitary Office database and now when I send it, it will be listed as thaianum on the phytosanitary certificate. I emailed a cheif officer at CITES and she was more than happy to get it added. Seems CITES is fine with its export in flask here.

Brett

 

[tenman]

It would be nice (since Craig invited the inquiry) if you asked about hangianum or others we don't have here which are not limited solely to vietnam.

 

[Rick]

Wow

A lot of action since I was out of town Brett!

Anyway you know I had also talked to Gail Jennings with USDA (who was in the division of import of CITES organisms for USDA) and I can confirm what she told Brett about bringing in less than 12 flasks of Paph species from non-Vietnam signatories.

I asked if I could retain her name for reference and she said no problem.

As mentioned in previous posts, there seemed to be double standards for certain individuals and plant species, but it seems to center on Vietnamese origins, import of plants not in flasks, or import of commercial quantities of plant material. I downloaded the USDA import form, and most of the check boxes had to do with "wholesale or resale" questions. But also as pointed out, CITES is USFW not USDA.

So It sounds like things are covered.

 

[likespaphs]

It would be nice (since Craig invited the inquiry) if you asked about hangianum or others we don't have here which are not limited solely to vietnam.

yes please!
(although i'd have to wait until they're bigger as i can't grow from flask or compot very well...)

 

[s1214215]

Hi Rick

YEs, it sounds good. I guess what I am looking at is starting small and then building up. I can get great Paph flasks here, but I dont want to send it I will have headaches with the bureaucracy.

I dont really export paphs as a business, I have a Monday to Friday job that makes it impossible. This has been a learning experience getting thaianum to the USA.

However, I'd like to see some species more widely available. Preservation in collections is important given many countries are trashing their ecosystems and from what I see in Asia, not a lot will be pristine within 20 years.

That said, USDA, F&W, CITES all said to me, its all OK for non Vietnamese paph species in flask..

I must admit I come unstuck here though as I have seen many of the Vietnamese species stated as existing in China too, not to mention some are already in the USA. Probably something for another thread.

Brett

 

[s1214215]

Yes.. I have asked Craig too about the other species, including hungianum, raising the question of are they exclusive to Vietnam? I await a reply on them by email.

In addition to the info above... Flask of the thaianums sent I have will have this printed on the phytosanitary cert issued by the Dept. of Agriculture, Thailand. " Propagated plant materials, from propagated parent plants". Which is the truth and the flask are verified as such. CITES here also has updated the Phytosanitary database of allowed species to include Paphiopedilum thaianum (Flasks) which gets printed on the phyto, not just Paphiopedilum species. I got a phyto for one flask today and after inspection, the cert was issued. Not a problem

Brett