Cymbidium goeringii (Japanese varieties-mid December 2020 update)

[jokerpass]

Linus_Cello: It is not hard to get Chinese C. ensifolium, C. sinense, C. kanran, C. goeringii, and C. faberi from Taiwanese Vendors who come to the shows in North America every year pre-Covid. The only caveat is that 1. they are labelled in Chinese with English pingying, so if you want to know what variety it is, it maybe difficult to find out. 2. There are many mislabelled plants. when it blooms, it is not true to the variety. It is not hard to get them if you just want to have an East Asian Cymbidium.

 

[mrhappyrotter]

Ray and mrgappypotter- where did you get your cyms from?

I've got 2. One that blooms for me came from Orchid Trail (recently closed), but the original source was Ching Hua Orchids. The other is not fully mature / not fully recovered from its retail ordeal, came from Ebay, but was originally from Ten Shen Orchids if I recall correctly. This species comes up for sale on Ebay fairly regularly, though often the prices are well beyond what I'm willing to pay for a plant coming from someone other than a highly reputable and well-known vendor. There are also (or used to be) fairly inexpensive ones from Louisiana Orchid Connection.

 

[Ray]

@Linus_Cello My supplier was East Sea Orchids. They went through some turmoil a while back, and while their website is still there, I think they're primarily focusing on the Asian market.

 

[jokerpass]

Both Tenshin (just outside Taichung) and Chinghua (in Tainan) are Taiwanese Vendors. These 2 cities are middle and south part of the island which are too hot to grow Asian Cymbidiums, especially Chinghua. The temperature in Tainan is 25C-30C all year round so Chinghua grow all the dendrobiums and Cattelya very well. None of them grow their own East Asian Cymbidiums. I am from Taiwan and when they attended the shows here, I talked to them. They outsource their East Asian Cymbidiums from other vendors in Taiwan. Just like Japanese Cymbidium vendors, in Taiwan, Taiwanese vendors who grow East Asian Cymbidiums only grow East Asian Cymbidiums, nothing else. Since Taiwan is too hot (lowlands and cities), all the well known Asian Cymbidiums vendors have their nurseries in the mountains at higher elevation where the temperature is lower. In terms of price, C. ensifolium and C. sinense should cost you anywhere from 45-65 CDN which is a bit expensivie considering that it is only 3 bulbs. In Taiwan, you can purchase the same variety with 10-15 growths of the same plant for less than 30 CDN. C. goeringii is also anywhere from 45-65 CDN per 3 bulbs and this is as cheap as it gets. In Taiwan, the most expensive East Asian Cymbidiums is C. goeringii and the reason is because Taiwan is too way hot (the environment is not optimal to grow these) so they grow slower and requires more work to grow them. I am from Taiwan and I visit my mom regularly and every time I go back, I do a bit of market research, this market research was done more than 10 years ago. The price has not changed for the most common varieites.

 

[Ray]

Big difference!

Buying wholesale, I paid $1.50-$2.50 for 3-bulb plants, delivered and in-spike.

 

[jokerpass]

Yes, the price I mentioned is retail, not wholesale. The retail prices I mentioned above are blooming size plants, with a minimum of 6 bulbs, we are not comparing the same thing. The price you mention 3 bulb at $1.5-$2.5 wholesale makes sense because at retail, these would sell it for $8-$10 at retail in flower market in Taiwan. To grow and bloom them well (like the ones you see in Asia), East Asian Cymbidiums are high maintenance plants during growing cycle, it really needs extra care and attention during the growing season (from May to Nov) to acheive so. Unlike my other Western Orchids like Cattleya, Dendrobiums, and Paphs, I don't really pay too much attention, as long as you water, they bloom. I know the wholesale prices as well, but I don't mind paying retail price since I cannot buy that many plants, it is way too much plants to take care of. I don't buy 3 bulb plants anyway, most of these wholeplants are medium seedling at best and it will take at least 2-3 years before they become blooming size. It is possible to bloom an East Asian Cymbidium with 3 bulbs as long as they are grown with the correct potting mix and have the conditions and with a very good root system, in Taiwan, for C. ensifolium and C. sinense, it is possible. However, when you grow them under suboptimal conditions, they will take a long time before they rebloom. When I buy C. goeringii, I only purchase blooming size plants with a minimum of 6 bulbs with 2 leads mininum, so I can bloom them every year. Just a note, the size of C. goeringii is based on the conditions of the roots and # of leaves on the bulb, not on the number of growths. I have seen C. goeringii that have 6-8 growths and the vendor sells it as a medium seedling, indicating that the roots are still not very good to bloom. Also, buying retail from Japan, I get all the detailed instructions and coaching from my Japanese Cymbidium vendor anytime I have questions, I don't think these advice come as free, it is only fair, I think. Also, as I mentioned before, C. sinense and C. ensifolium in Taiwan are dirt cheap even in retail, even retail is not so much money. Chinese people don't like to share, so when I asked Taiwanese Cymbidium vendors (even I purchased from them) specific questions about how to culture them, they don't tell you exactly the methods and often vague, so there is very little customer service.

 

[musaboru]

The sinensis types are easy. The single-flower goeringii types are, however, a different story.

Seed Engei also had sold goeringii and I wonder how they keep them in Santa Barbara. Winter low is probably 40 F for very short period of time there and it is very unlikely to get below 30 F for a 20 year low.

 

[jokerpass]

Yes, the level of difficulty from the easiest to the hardest is C. ensifolium (easiest), C. sinense, C. kanran, C. goeringii, C. faberi (hardest). C.goeringii subspecies goeringii with one flower per stem (not othet subspecies with more than 1 flower per stem) is the most difficult out of all the C goeringii. The other type of C goeringii with more than 1 flower per stem are from southern china (high elevation) so they can be grown and bloom at a “higher “ temperature. In general, Chinese C goeringii (one flower per stem and more than one flower per stem) is the much more robust and easy to grow and bloom than Japanese and Korean C. goeringii, even in Japan where they are from, it is still more difficult than the Chinese varieties. C goeringii has very strict requirements and the conditions are not flexible if you want to grow and bloom them well. Seed Engei doesnt grow C goeringii, they outsource all the Cymbidiums (I know which vendor). Seed Engei gets them once a year in small quantity and it is usually sold out right away ( this is what I have been told), so they dont keep them for long. It is too hot in California to grow and bloom them properly as California doesnt have the winter conditions for them. I don't buy from them as I source my collection from Japan directly.

Just a note on C faberi, same culture requirements as C goeringii but they require a much longer vernalization time for the flower buds to bloom successfully in late spring. They also has very little pseudobulbs so you can pretend that they dont have pseudobulbs. So proper watering techniques and using the correct cymbidium mix are even more important than C goeringii

 

[Heather]

My Japanese Cymbidium vendor told me that for C. goeringii, the lowest temperature it can go down to is minus 5C (-5C) = 23F. At this temperature, it is possible but only for a very short amount of time. To give you an idea, Tokyo rarely snows, so it means that in the winter time, it is just above 0C (above freezing).

My climate in Sacramento is similar to this and I’m thinking of growing it outside, at least to get the winter temps where they need to be. Should be hardy here in 9B.

 

[Tom-DE]

I have two beautiful cym. pots down in the basement...don't know why and when I got them....
It would be such a waste if I don't use them for a couple of miniature Cyms like goeringii...what is your suggestion, especially the ones with variegated leaves? any suggestions/opinions on eBay sellers?

 

[jokerpass]

I have two beautiful cym. pots down in the basement...don't know why and when I got them....
It would be such a waste if I don't use them for a couple of miniature Cyms like goeringii...what is your suggestion, especially the ones with variegated leaves? any suggestions/opinions on eBay sellers?

Hi:

1. Problem 1 you have to think. what are the size (s) of your Cymbidium pot(s)? I don't want to be rude but many people think they are growing "Asian Cymbidium" once you pot your East Asian Cymbidium into an East Asian Cymbidium pot without thinking. This is the mentality of most people which I don't get. Like ANY Orchids, you have to make sure that the pots you have are the appropriate sizes for the plants you purchase. I have 6 different pot sizes, for small seedling all the way up to specimen plants. From what I understand, the pots sold in North America and Europe are mostly for large seedling to blooming size plants (equivalent of crane brand pot size 4.5 and up). To know what pot size you have, just measure the distance (diameter) of the pot (at the top) from rim to rim. For example, crane size 4.5 is 4.5 inches from rim to rim.

2. Problem 2 you have to think. Almost all ebay sellers sell plants advertised as "3 bulb blooming size plant", does it sound familiar? I can tell you all these "3 bulb blooming size plants" on ebay are NOT Blooming size, they are medium seedling at best. So, I don't know if the plants purchased from ebay sellers are suitable for your pots. If the plant is overpotted, you already starting overpotted from day 1, so it will probably die within 1 year.

From my experience, online sellers, 50% of the time, the varieties are wrong. The online sellers don't give a s**t because most people probably will kill the plants before it blooms. There was 1 plant I received from a local Taiwanese vendor last year (specimen plant), it bloomed wrong (wrong variety, I ordered a round petal varieites, instead, it is blooming with a butterly petals).

Also, if you want to get variegated varieites, the less green it has, the more difficult it is going to be. At the Toronto Show 2 weeks ago, one taiwanese vendor brought many beautiful Cymbidium goeringii with centre stripes (the leaves have little to no green), if you don't know what you are doing, it's going to be dead very fast. I didn't even touch them because I know it's difficult.

3. This is before I even mention about potting mix. I would highly suggest that you also buy some East Asian Cymbidium mix before you even getting the plant.

There is a lot of preparation work and planning before getting the plants. Before I import my plants from Japan or Taiwan, I always make sure that I have the pots (6 different sizes), bags and bags (in 10L bags) of East Asian Cymbidium Mix (large, medium, and small grades), and Cymbidium pot racks.

These are my observation and honest opinions. Good luck!

 

[Linus_Cello]

I have two beautiful cym. pots down in the basement...don't know why and when I got them....
It would be such a waste if I don't use them for a couple of miniature Cyms like goeringii...what is your suggestion, especially the ones with variegated leaves? any suggestions/opinions on eBay sellers?

Jokerpass/Michael’s YT presentation:

 

[jokerpass]

Jokerpass/Michael’s YT presentation:

Thank you, I updated the presentation and I am doing 2 talks + repotting demo at my local orchid societies in March-May.

 

[Tom-DE]

Thank you.
@pot size, I am aware of overpotting for orchids in general and I do have a few different pots from 3" to 8" diameter for Cyms. They will fit what I have/want. I grow miniature Cyms mainly for the foliage(especially the variegated ones) and I don't intend to keep specimen plants(for Cyms) anyway.
@potting mix, I don't know If I can get what you recommended. I don't believe the Asian Mix is absolutely a must for them...I am going to use some Bonsai soil mix(from Japan) that I can get from my local garden center and a few other ingredients to make my mix.
I was hoping you could name a few varieties/clones and eBay sellers...that's all nothing else. Can you still do that?

 

[jokerpass]

What kind of variegations you are looking for? Marginal variegation (Fukurin) has stable variegation.

Stripe (Shima) and tiger (tora fu) are more difficult as the striping is based on genetics (stripes) and cultural conditions (tora fu).

There are hundreds of variegation cymbidium goeringii. In North America and Europe, there is only a handful that the Taiwanese vendors bring or sometimes, Satomi from Seed Engei may have some in the spring. There is very little choices to pick from, almost all the the varieites they bring are easy to grow. Just don't get varieites that have little to no green.

Japanese varieties:
fukurin: 1 Amakusa/Tian Cao/Xue Shan Bian Cao (天草・雪山辺草) This variety has at least 3 dfferent names but it's same one.
2 Setzuzan （雪山）、3 Teikan (帝冠）、4 Kamo Nisshin (加茂日進)

Stripe: 1 Daisetsurei (大雪嶺),

tiger: 1 sumonzan (守門山）、2 Akagiyama (赤城山), 3 Shoujou no hana (菖城の花）

Snake Skin: 1. Kinpa 錦波 2 Sumonryuu 守門竜

I don't buy any of my Cymbidiums from Ebay sellers, I go to the source directly in Taiwan and/or Japan so I have direct commucation with East Asian Cymbidium nurseries to make sure I get the varieties I want and the best price possible (local price, not oversea prices). Sorry, cannot help you with which Ebay sellers are good or bad.

 

[Tom-DE]

@jokerpass, Thank you for the recommendations. I will avoid the variegated one with very little green on the leaves. One more question, how often do you repot your Cyms(in your mix)?
I checked online, Cymbidium US, an online seller, has a good selection of Cyms and the price is not bad...Has anyone had experience with them?

 

[jokerpass]

@jokerpass, Thank you for the recommendations. I will avoid the variegated one with very little green on the leaves. One more question, how often do you repot your Cyms(in your mix)?
I checked online, Cymbidium US, an online seller, has a good selection of Cyms and the price is not bad...Has anyone had experience with them?

1 Amakusa/Tian Cao/Xue Shan Bian Cao (天草・雪山辺草) This variety has at least 3 dfferent names but it's same one.
FYI: Another name for the same variety is called Amakusa Setzusan/Xueshan Tian Cao (雪山天草). Don't be confused with the the real Setzuzan (雪山). The real Setzuzan is a bigger and more majestic looking plant and produces bigger flower than Amakusa Setzusan/Xueshan Tian Cao (雪山天草).

I quickly looked at this Etsy Seller CymbidiumUS. This is a very typical Chinese seller who doesn't care.
1. Most Cymbidium names have no English Romanization. So for people who don't read Chinese or Chinese characters, it is impossible to look up the varieties. To me, this is important because you have to know what you are buying. The growing conditions vary depending on the varieites.
2. Almost all of the pictures are not the pictures of the real plant, so you don't know what you are actually getting. I need to see the picture of the plants I am actually purchase. When I purchase my Cymbidium, both Taiwanese and Japanese vendors would send me pictures of the plants I am actually purchasing, 1 by 1.
3. The prices are very expensive. I looked a few, they are all 2-3 growth plants.

example 1: Cym goeringii Wang Zi 汪字 (Chinese variety) 2 growth plants for for $34.99 US. In Taiwan, a 15-20 growth plant (retail) only costed me $25 CDN, including paperwork and shipping, it only costed me $50 CDN (around $37 USD) So, this is not a good price.
https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/1262302260/live-orchid-plants-wng-zi-easy-care?click_key=eb52aa5ca3b7c6047c199faac8bd86ece2f61864:1262302260&click_sum=f5821f00&ref=shop_home_active_17&crt=1&sts=1&variation0=2754770656

example 2: Cymbidium Taegeukseum 太極扇 (Korean variety): 2 growth plants for $399 USD. From my Japanese vendor, I paid just under $100 CDN (around $75 USD) for 6 growth plant with 1 bud. This is going to bloom very soon, I will post picture when it blooms here in Toronto, Canada.
https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/1326862037/live-orchid-plants-tai-ji-shan-easy-care?click_key=b8e5e1544a2976ef9dc07afdf7e35915af45162b:1326862037&click_sum=f9609e73&ref=shop_home_active_66&sca=1&sts=1

example 3: Cymbidium goeringii (雪山天草/雪山金辺/雪山). The same plant has 3 different names, which one is it? I would question what plant I am getting.

https://www.etsy.com/ca/listing/1187466649/live-orchid-xu-shn-tin-co-dai-hu-bo?click_key=9d1e8a070a5cb666524d4d024a7eca09c358befa:1187466649&click_sum=7b06217a&ref=shop_home_active_84&sts=1

Again, this plant, in Taiwan it was also $25 CDN (around $18.50 USD) for 15-20 growths (with 5-6 buds). So yes, this is very expensive. By the way, Taiwanese/Chinese vendors have flooded the North American and European market with this variety. My Taiwanese vendor told me that this is probably a flask selection, not a real species from the wild. I could not find any information on this variety. This is supposed to be a "Japanese" variety, but my Japanese vendor doesn't know this variety either and it is not in any of the 40+ Cymbidium goeringii books/dictionaries I have in my collection.

Just by looking at this website, I do not recommend this seller. I would not waste my money on it. I am a very particular person (condition, price, varieties) when it comes to buying any orchids, not just East Asian Cymbidiums.

 

[jokerpass]

@jokerpass, Thank you for the recommendations. I will avoid the variegated one with very little green on the leaves. One more question, how often do you repot your Cyms(in your mix)?
I checked online, Cymbidium US, an online seller, has a good selection of Cyms and the price is not bad...Has anyone had experience with them?

I repot in my Cymbidium goeringii every 2 years. I tried to stretch for 3 years but 3 years is too long. The media goes bad after 2 years (I think the pH changes and the roots start to die). That's why I have about 60L of this media in my shed. I can get them anytime I want 365 days a year, stable supply and price. It takes 1-2 weeks to get them after I place my order.

 

[Tom-DE]

@jokerpass, the problem is that I only want a couple of them... I don't know about the regulations in Canada, but for U.S. hobbyists, it would not be so easy to import plants "truly" legally.

 

[jokerpass]

@jokerpass, the problem is that I only want a couple of them... I don't know about the regulations in Canada, but for U.S. hobbyists, it would not be so easy to import plants "truly" legally.

The last spring purchase from Taiwan (local vendor), I only bought 3 Cym. goeringii, $25 CDN ($18.50 USD) each + shipping and handling.
2 plants were 15+ growths plants
the 3rd plant is more rare in taiwan (smaller plant), only had 6 growths.

No I didn't purchase many plants, only 3 plants at retail price. He told me that if I buy in bulk, the price could go lower.
So, no, I don't need to buy bulk.

Importing into US is easier than Canada. From what I understand, the US rules are more relaxed than Canada. There are so many oversea vendors that come to US every year (taiwanese vendors, japanese vendors, thai vendors). The Redland show in Florida is one of the biggest orchid shows in the world (other than the Tokyo Dome Show). The Neofinetia facebook group does 2-3 orders every year from Korea. The US market is so much bigger than Canada. I cannot imagine how many plants are imported into the US every year.

The rules are the same, import permit from your country (US for you, and CDN for me),
from the oversea vendors: phytosanitary certificate, export permit, invoice,
In the US, there are green and yellow stickers for preclearance to tell the USDA that there is shipment of plants coming into the US.

Importing into Canada must be all barerooted plants but I don't think that's the case for the US.

The only thing you cannot import is CITES I plants and that would be Paphiopedilium, Cyprepedium, and Phragmipedilum species.
The illegal thing you are referring to is probably that many Asian vendors would label Paphiopedilum species (CITES I) as Paphiopedilum Hybrid (CITIES II). I have seen Asian vendors doing this every year. Yes, this is illegal.

I have experience importing orchids and other plants from Asia for over 10 years. It requires paperwork and you have to let the Asian vendors know what the requirements are it's your responsibility (they won't know the requirements). But, once you do it once, you know how to do it. Nothing to it.