Free Roses (well, almost free)

[Sirius]

Ok, seriously. Enough.

If you honestly think that plants such as roses have MORE, or MORE SEVERE pest problems than orchids, post a link to a real study proving it. Big shock coming...all plants grown indoors have pest problems!

I could purge my growing area of every non-orchid plant, and still have a problem with mites, aphids and mealies. Do you know why? Because those things existed before the roses even showed up. I have had mite outbreaks because of a phalaenopsis. Maybe I should get rid of those. I have had mealies on my encyclias. They should go too. I almost threw up once when I found an aphid colony on one of my oncidium intergenerics. Time to burn my greenhouse down.

I am a big boy. I think I can handle a little outbreak here and there. But to say that roses are somehow going to bring down the plague is annoying, and unfounded. I will keep my rose talk off the forum from now on. Let's get back to the slippers.

 

[Candace]

John, chill.

 

[snow]

i have NO pests on my orchids

 

[SelectOrchids]

That's interesting. I tried growing those mini roses before and killed every single one of them :sob: I'm kinda tempted to try again after reading that. Shame I'm in UK.

Many are produced in Denmark in highly specialized conditions, those available in Europe are very, very difficult to keep alive. Same for the "miniature bamboo" that are raised with a RH of 80% and a microdrip system full of nutrients, growth dwarfing and antibiotics.

Everything I read online said there was no way I could grow roses in my conditions, and that it was pointless to grow them indoors. All the culture sites said roses bloom better at cooler temps.

Dunno, but I have seen wonderful roses plants in Saigon ( +23°C when it's really cold, usually in the 30+°C). Remember though that we have a very, very high humidity...

 

[Sirius]

Candace, coming from you that's laughable.

 

[Candace]

Huh

 

[gonewild]

John,
If you are really want to read science this might be of interest.
http://www.weeds.iastate.edu/mgmt/2003/multiflorarose.shtml

It does not prove what you are wanting to know but it does have some data that indicates mite populations are greater on roses that are grown in shade.
From this you can guess that roses grown indoors under lights (which yield less than optimum rose growing conditions) are likely more sensitive to mites than orchids growing under optimum light levels (for orchids). So roses grown indoors mixed with orchids could in fact cause an out break of mites.

The tissue of roses is generally softer and more inviting to sucking insects so it would make sense that aphids would prefer roses to orchids and flourish to cause an out break. The fact that birds and mammals feed heavily on roses and not orchids indicate that roses are more prone to pests than orchids. Probably the sugar content is higher and that is why insects prefer roses to orchids.

Any rose grower will tell you that roses grown in a greenhouse are many times more succeptable to pests than roses grown outdoors.

So what actually happens is, roses grown beside your orchids act as an incubator for mites and aphids and that allows the population to increase and migrate.

 

[SelectOrchids]

The main problem actually related to mites and roses ( and all crops similrly treated) is that roses are a little bit prone to aphids. From that, many growers spray Imidacloprid that will cause an outbreak of mites, absolutely resistant to nearly all chemicals known ( except bromopropylate, but impossible to get for hobbyists and in many countries).

 

[Sirius]

I was going to let this one go, since it seems I am arguing a point that is a losing proposition. The fact is, nobody here gives a damn about roses, or even ideas based in fact and supported by proof. This is an orchid forum. Had I known what this would start, I would have skipped posting.

The statement that roses are more susceptible than orchids to invasion is unproven. If you place a rose bush and an orchid plant in the same contained growing area full of mites, which plant will a majority of the mites migrate to? I don't know. It's possible you might find more of them on the rose bush. I just don't think anyone here should be expressing this opinion as fact, unless they have some solid proof to back it up.

Lance, you said "...roses grown indoors mixed with orchids could in fact cause an outbreak of mites." They sure could. If I brought in one rose plant infested with mites, they could spread to my orchids and episcias. If I brought in one orchid infested with mites, they could spread to my episcias and the roses. If I brought in an episcia infested with mites, they could spread to the orchids and roses. Do you see where this is going? Bringing in any new plant is a risky proposition. Even the best vendors have pest problems. You run the risk of invasion every time you add a new plant of any kind.

But to say I run a higher risk by bringing in a rose plant is unproven.

Lance, you also said "Any rose grower will tell you that roses grown in a greenhouse are many times more succeptable to pests than roses grown outdoors." Any orchid grower will probably tell you the same thing. This is because greenhouses are fertile ground. There are no harsh weather events or predators in greenhouses. There is an abundance of food sources. There is open access to this prime environment through contaminated media, new plant introductions and open vents.

http://www.actahort.org/members/showpdf?booknrarnr=608_1

If you own a greenhouse, and you have never had a problem with insects, then you should share your quarantine and pesticide spray regimine with all of us. I use a couple of very serious chemical sprays twice a year. Many of you have opted to go the way of organic products. That is great if you so choose. But either way, all of us have the same problems with pests whether we grow orchids, roses or carnivorous plants. Carnivorous plants! Talk about attracting pests.

I guess what it all boils down to is this. Yesterday was a very bad day for me. On top of that I felt this thread was slipping into a little bit of "rose hate," and for no factual reasons. If someone can post some information proving roses to be the "Typhoid Mary" of the plant world, maybe I will reconsider growing them.

 

[gonewild]

I was going to let this one go, since it seems I am arguing a point that is a losing proposition. The fact is, nobody here gives a damn about roses, or even ideas based in fact and supported by proof. This is an orchid forum. Had I known what this would start, I would have skipped posting.

I like roses. I like miniture roses. Belinda once had over a hundred minitures in her rose garden and the were beautiful and grew and bloomed year round. No scientific proof but the rose garden required much more spray and attention to keep the insects under control than any other part of the garden. I thnk roses just offer a better habitat for pests than many other plants. But that is not a reason not to grow them.

The statement that roses are more susceptible than orchids to invasion is unproven. If you place a rose bush and an orchid plant in the same contained growing area full of mites, which plant will a majority of the mites migrate to? I don't know. It's possible you might find more of them on the rose bush. I just don't think anyone here should be expressing this opinion as fact, unless they have some solid proof to back it up.

I hope I did not give the impression that what I said was proven fact.

Lance, you said "...roses grown indoors mixed with orchids could in fact cause an outbreak of mites." They sure could. If I brought in one rose plant infested with mites, they could spread to my orchids and episcias. If I brought in one orchid infested with mites, they could spread to my episcias and the roses. If I brought in an episcia infested with mites, they could spread to the orchids and roses. Do you see where this is going? Bringing in any new plant is a risky proposition. Even the best vendors have pest problems. You run the risk of invasion every time you add a new plant of any kind.

I was not considering that a plant brought in was the source of infestation. I assume the mites or other pests are already present in most collections. When you add a "host" plant such as a rose to your collection this might create an incubator where a few mites might migrate to from your orchids. Once they find the rose they can and will proliferate rapidly and then spread back to your orchids. So I was not talking about bringing in a rose plant.

But to say I run a higher risk by bringing in a rose plant is unproven.

Not proven but growing roses will likely increase your instance of insect infestations. I think it is a safe assumption.

Lance, you also said "Any rose grower will tell you that roses grown in a greenhouse are many times more succeptable to pests than roses grown outdoors." Any orchid grower will probably tell you the same thing. This is because greenhouses are fertile ground. There are no harsh weather events or predators in greenhouses. There is an abundance of food sources. There is open access to this prime environment through contaminated media, new plant introductions and open vents.

You are correct but roses will have a bigger increase in pests than orchids. One of the biggest problems facing greenhouse rose growers today is pest control. South America allows the use of more pesticides on roses than does the USA. That is why now 90% of the roses sold in the USA are from Columbia and Ecuador. this is not a a big issue for orchid growers and in fact is one of the reasons many rose growers have converted their ranges to orchid production.

I guess what it all boils down to is this. Yesterday was a very bad day for me. On top of that I felt this thread was slipping into a little bit of "rose hate," and for no factual reasons. If someone can post some information proving roses to be the "Typhoid Mary" of the plant world, maybe I will reconsider growing them.

I missed that part of the post. I like roses.

 

[Sirius]

I hope I did not give the impression that what I said was proven fact.

You sure didn't leave much room for doubt. "The fact that birds and mammals feed heavily on roses and not orchids indicate that roses are more prone to pests than orchids. Probably the sugar content is higher and that is why insects prefer roses to orchids.

I was not considering that a plant brought in was the source of infestation. I assume the mites or other pests are already present in most collections.

Lance, by this line of thinking, it might also be smart to keep phalaenopsis away from other orchids. If I assume roses are likely to increase the potential for outbreak, then I must also assume that phalaenopsis increase my chances for outbreak. Phalaenopsis are proven points of outbreak for mites, and grow in shadier conditions than roses which your link earlier stated increased the chances of outbreak. If I was worried about the roses, I should be just as concerned, if not more, about the phalaenopsis. All based on assumptions.

When you add a "host" plant such as a rose to your collection this might create an incubator where a few mites might migrate to from your orchids.

Again, purely hypothetical, since no scientific evidence has been posted showing that roses are better "host" plants than orchids, or that they make better sources of outbreak than orchids.

You are correct but roses will have a bigger increase in pests than orchids. One of the biggest problems facing greenhouse rose growers today is pest control. South America allows the use of more pesticides on roses than does the USA. That is why now 90% of the roses sold in the USA are from Columbia and Ecuador.

Actually, the percentage is lower than that. According to the Society of American Florists and the Progressive Policy Institute, half of the roses sold in the United States come from Columbia. Only 18% come from Ecuador. http://www.aboutflowers.com/press_b1.html It's obviously still a majority, but are you sure they started growing roses there because pesticide regulations are lax, or because the U.S. government is giving them kickbacks to shift them away from growing cocaine? http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAreaID=108&subsecID=900003&contentID=250272

As an aside, how the hell did trying to give away free roses turn into me looking into U.S. policy for ex-cocaine growers. I have to get away from this place.

 

[gonewild]

You sure didn't leave much room for doubt. "The fact that birds and mammals feed heavily on roses and not orchids indicate that roses are more prone to pests than orchids. Probably the sugar content is higher and that is why insects prefer roses to orchids.

You missed two important words in what I wrote, "indicate" and "Probably". I used both of those words in what i wrote to imply that what i wrote was not fact. It is a fact that mammals and birds feed more on roses than orchids but I don't thgink that needs to be proven to be used for this argument?

Lance, by this line of thinking, it might also be smart to keep phalaenopsis away from other orchids. If I assume roses are likely to increase the potential for outbreak, then I must also assume that phalaenopsis increase my chances for outbreak. Phalaenopsis are proven points of outbreak for mites, and grow in shadier conditions than roses which your link earlier stated increased the chances of outbreak. If I was worried about the roses, I should be just as concerned, if not more, about the phalaenopsis. All based on assumptions.

You missed the point slightly. It is not the fact that a plant grows in shady conditions that caused an increase in mite population. It is the fact that a rose plant that grows in LESS than ideal conditions (low light) will have a higher population of mites. Phalaenopsis naturally grow in lower light than roses so a Phalaenopsis growing under an artifical light may be at optimum levels where as a rose sitting beside it will be in less than optimum (shady) conditions. This means the rose is weak while the Phalaenopsis is strong. You can carry this line of thinking further and conclude that a Phalaenopsis growing in very dark conditions may indeed be more attractive to insects than one growing in perfect light. So if Paph light levels are low for Phals and you grow both side by side the Phal may indeed be a source for pest problems.

A fact that surely has been proven sometime.... any living creature that is living in less than optimum conditions is more prone to attack from pests and diease. Seems logical to me.

Again, purely hypothetical, since no scientific evidence has been posted showing that roses are better "host" plants than orchids, or that they make better sources of outbreak than orchids.

I doubt there are direct scientific comparisons because the growing conditions are so different that there is no reason to compare them. In the science of horticulture one would never consider growing orchids and roses side by side as good practice. So science would not consider the option in the first place. Only a person with an imagination or personal desire such as yourself would do such a thing. That is a complement by the way.

Actually, the percentage is lower than that. According to the Society of American Florists and the Progressive Policy Institute, half of the roses sold in the United States come from Columbia. Only 18% come from Ecuador. http://www.aboutflowers.com/press_b1.html It's obviously still a majority, but are you sure they started growing roses there because pesticide regulations are lax, or because the U.S. government is giving them kickbacks to shift them away from growing cocaine? http://www.ppionline.org/ppi_ci.cfm?knlgAreaID=108&subsecID=900003&contentID=250272

Pesticide use is/was a major reason. In reality it is probably the only reason that can't be overcome here with technology. Roses need pesticides to produce a quality cut flower and this is just no longer allowed in the USA. Labor costs are another major reason but a subsidy from the U.S. government is not necessary, the cartels more than cover it. I doubt the subsities that our gov pays ever reach a rose grower.

As an aside, how the hell did trying to give away free roses turn into me looking into U.S. policy for ex-cocaine growers. I have to get away from this place.

You asked for scientific proof and as a result you uncovered a cia conspiracy. Now try to prove it!