getting slightly disappointed with phrags

[orchideya]

I have been growing phrags for almost a year and yesterday I made an honest assessment of the results and it seems that I am not very good with them.
For some reason they grew full pots of roots, but not much of the foliage. On the contrary - some type of brown rot would snap half a leaf here and there until I can't look at it anymore and throw the whole fan away.
The only one that grows nicely both roots and leaves and has no problems at all is caudatum, but its leaves are harder and thicker, maybe that's why. Rest are besseae hybrids and they don't like my tank.
Temps around 16C now, there is a fan running on the schedule, watering with distilled water.
What's not to like?

 

[Secundino]

Generally speaking, a plant with roots is happy. Leaf damage occurs mostly with high salt content of water - but if you use destilled water only, there are no high salt contents and that can not be the reason - there must be something else:
- what do you feed?
- what type of substrate do you use?
- the fan is good, but watch the humidity of the surrounding air!
- how many sun you allow to reach the plants for how long?

 

[orchideya]

Generally speaking, a plant with roots is happy. Leaf damage occurs mostly with high salt content of water - but if you use destilled water only, there are no high salt contents and that can not be the reason - there must be something else:
- what do you feed?
- what type of substrate do you use?
- the fan is good, but watch the humidity of the surrounding air!
- how many sun you allow to reach the plants for how long?

Ok, thank you Secundino for giving some hope, they certainly have great roots. Here are the answers:

-Through this all time I fed just twice with very diluted solution of balanced 20-20-20 all purpose ferts that I use on all my orchids.
- Substrate is bark with perlite and river stones
- Humidity in that tank is around 60%. Often I see clear liquid collecting on the leaves, but it is not a water, it seems like they produce maybe some type of sap, I don't know. I wipe it away as soon as I see it.
- T5 HO lights are on from 6 am to 8 pm
So, what am I doing wrong?

 

[gonewild]

If you want to grow leaves you have to provide the plant nutrients. The amount of fertilizer you have used is not enough.

I solved the type of rot problem you describe by reducing potassium in the fertilizer.

16c is too cold for day temperature.

If caudtum is doing well and besseae hybrids are not then you may not be watering enough.

If your tank is enclosed you may have low CO2 levels.

 

[orchideya]

If you want to grow leaves you have to provide the plant nutrients. The amount of fertilizer you have used is not enough.

I solved the type of rot problem you describe by reducing potassium in the fertilizer.

16c is too cold for day temperature.

If caudtum is doing well and besseae hybrids are not then you may not be watering enough.

If your tank is enclosed you may have low CO2 levels.

How often should I fertilize?

Underwatering is not a problem because they sit in saucers with water and are always wet, I think roots like it and grow like crazy.
Temps are hovering between 15-16 at night to 17-18 when lights are on. I thought they liked it cooler. My phals are fine there and even blooming.

 

[NYEric]

I have basically a ton of besseae hybrids. I have also killed a ton due to either bad rotten media or humidity issues. Why do you have the plants in a tank?

 

[PaphMadMan]

Not a Phrag expert, but it does sound like you have under-fertilized. I wouldn't increase dramatically though, maybe try that dilute solution once or twice a month and watch for a change. The rot you describe could mean calcium deficiency in some plants - one necrotic spot allows rot in and the leaf collapses at that point. Make sure your fertilizer is supplying some calcium and magnesium, and the usual micro-nutrients.

 

[orchideya]

I have basically a ton of besseae hybrids. I have also killed a ton due to either bad rotten media or humidity issues. Why do you have the plants in a tank?

Humidity in the house drops to 25%, I thought it would be too dry for phrags. No?
I guess I could try to put them into bathroom, should be slightly more humid.

 

[orchideya]

Not a Phrag expert, but it does sound like you have under-fertilized. I wouldn't increase dramatically though, maybe try that dilute solution once or twice a month and watch for a change. The rot you describe could mean calcium deficiency in some plants - one necrotic spot allows rot in and the leaf collapses at that point. Make sure your fertilizer is supplying some calcium and magnesium, and the usual micro-nutrients.

Thanks. I will try every 2 weeks and see.
Will they like crushed oyster shells for calcium? I have some that I use for paphs.

 

[NYEric]

If they are in trays of water I would not worry about it. I think your problem might be about too much humidity on the leaves. In the airflow takes care of that problem.

 

[gonewild]

How often should I fertilize?

Underwatering is not a problem because they sit in saucers with water and are always wet, I think roots like it and grow like crazy.
Temps are hovering between 15-16 at night to 17-18 when lights are on. I thought they liked it cooler. My phals are fine there and even blooming.

Temperatures: They enjoy cool nights but need warmer day temperature. A good basic rule is 10 degrees difference between day and night.

Fertilizer: If your growing environment remains constant then your nutrient application should remain constant. meaning give them small amounts of nutrients every time you water.
The basic thing you need to remember that plants need nutrients to use to build leaves. Without nutrients there is nothing to build with, kind of like trying to build a brick house without mortar. You can stack the bricks but not very high. And be aware that CO2 is a nutrient, it supplies carbon to the plant. Carbon to a plant is like the bricks in the brick house, without bricks the mortar is useless. When a plant grows it needs CO2 and "fertilizer" to physically build the leaves and the amount the plant has access to will effect the amount of leaves the plant can grow.

What I just said does not answer your question about how much fertilizer to use but you need to use more. Think bout the examples I gave and read some of the fertilizer threads here on the forum and base the amount of fertilizer on your environment. Or just copy what the K-lite growers are using with the low dosages.

I suggest using the K-lite type fertilizer because I have found that reducing the potassium corrects the type of rot symptom you described. Even though you have not applied enough 20-20-20 fertilizer to create an excess of potassium what you have created by using basically no fertilizer may be a high ratio of potassium available from the substrate. Applying fertilizer with low potassium will bring the total nutrient ratio into a better balance.

 

[orchideya]

I have K- Lite, but I didn't start using it yet because cannot figure out how to dissolve it, in what proportions to the water. I don't have any weighting-measuring tools besides "spoons". Using my 20-20-20 is easy, it comes with a scoop, so I take quarter of the scoop and everything is happy.

For phrags I did separate solution in a small bottle with just a few crystals. I guess, I need to be more scientific.

 

[Paul]

Hi,

just add K-Lite powder at 1/4 of what you give with your 20-20-20 powder into the distilled water and everything should be ok!!

If leaves remain black, then maybe you could have bacterial problems (acidovorax) but I doubt...

 

[orchideya]

Hi,

just add K-Lite powder at 1/4 of what you give with your 20-20-20 powder into the distilled water and everything should be ok!!

If leaves remain black, then maybe you could have bacterial problems (acidovorax) but I doubt...

That sounds easy. Thank you.

So, my course of actions for the besseae hybrids:
- move them out of tank;
- switch to K-Lite ferts;
- fertilize every 2 weeks.

Hope it works.

 

[Secundino]

If you have Phals in the same tank and they flower and thrive well, then the Phrags are simply not getting enough light!

This sap the leaves exude - guttation drops - are a sign of extremely high humidity. Something that is very likely to happen in a tank. It is the trick the plant does to force transpiration. I could be, that the leaves that 'rotted', just weren't able to assimilate as they should have and the plant droped them and replaced them. The new fan would be not as big ?

My Phragmis grow very quick - the most of all my orchids, like a Miltonia...! - and a quick and strong growing plant transpirates a lot and needs lot of water. Fresh substrate and continuos low feeding is ok for them.

River pebbles - you now what they are? Marble-like or flint or quartzite?
I assume you change the water the pots are sitting in; for even with low fertilizing, if you leave these 'waste'-water in the bottom, it will concentrate.

I nearly don't feed my plants. And when I do, - once or twice a month - it is a very diluted 20-20-20 solution. Once in a blue moon epsom salts. Thats it. I don't believe in low-K-feeding, and my plants are growing well. They get sun most of the year! Not as much as Cattleya, but much more than Phals get. In winter (and, to be honest, most times of the year) I can't provide a day-night difference of more than 5 or 6ºC. Now I have 16 - 20ºC. No sun - no warmth.

Whatsoever you want to change, make it gradually!

 

[ehanes7612]

I find it hard to undernourish a besseae hybrid and water trays can be a blessing or a curse (they were a curse for me)..just depends on everything else. When I grew in my GH i got a lot of sap, now that I grow in the house with lower humidiity , no sap..I would agree with Secundino, humidity maybe too high and get rid of the water trays for a month just to see if there is any improvement, you can always go back to them

 

[Paph_LdyMacBeth]

Brown rot on phrags is in my experience erwinia. I've experienced this a few times, always when I put my phrags outside for the summer. In my case it could be due to either hard water or cool nights.

 

[orchideya]

Thank you everybody for your thoughts and advice.

If you have Phals in the same tank and they flower and thrive well, then the Phrags are simply not getting enough light!

This sap the leaves exude - guttation drops - are a sign of extremely high humidity. Something that is very likely to happen in a tank. It is the trick the plant does to force transpiration. I could be, that the leaves that 'rotted', just weren't able to assimilate as they should have and the plant droped them and replaced them. The new fan would be not as big ?

My Phragmis grow very quick - the most of all my orchids, like a Miltonia...! - and a quick and strong growing plant transpirates a lot and needs lot of water. Fresh substrate and continuos low feeding is ok for them.

River pebbles - you now what they are? Marble-like or flint or quartzite?
I assume you change the water the pots are sitting in; for even with low fertilizing, if you leave these 'waste'-water in the bottom, it will concentrate.

I nearly don't feed my plants. And when I do, - once or twice a month - it is a very diluted 20-20-20 solution. Once in a blue moon epsom salts. Thats it. I don't believe in low-K-feeding, and my plants are growing well. They get sun most of the year! Not as much as Cattleya, but much more than Phals get. In winter (and, to be honest, most times of the year) I can't provide a day-night difference of more than 5 or 6ºC. Now I have 16 - 20ºC. No sun - no warmth.

Whatsoever you want to change, make it gradually!

I will change one thing at the time, so to understand what helped(if anything will help)
I think I will start with removing them from tank. Maybe high humidity is the problem. I will repot them into fresh media, move to bathroom window and make sure I change the water in the saucers more often.
That window has south-west exposure - lots of sun.

 

[gonewild]

I have K- Lite, but I didn't start using it yet because cannot figure out how to dissolve it, in what proportions to the water. I don't have any weighting-measuring tools besides "spoons". Using my 20-20-20 is easy, it comes with a scoop, so I take quarter of the scoop and everything is happy.

For phrags I did separate solution in a small bottle with just a few crystals. I guess, I need to be more scientific.

A few crystals in a small bottle of water is about the same as pure water as far as the plant is concerned.

You could use the same scoop amount for K-lite and the result would be lower nutrient application than with the 20-20-20.

You might also consider switching from distilled water to RO water. Distilled water contains no minerals like calcium and most RO water has some calcium in it and buying RO water should be cheaper than distilled.

 

[gonewild]

Thank you everybody for your thoughts and advice.
I will change one thing at the time, so to understand what helped(if anything will help)
I think I will start with removing them from tank. Maybe high humidity is the problem. I will repot them into fresh media, move to bathroom window and make sure I change the water in the saucers more often.
That window has south-west exposure - lots of sun.

All of the things on your list will help so change them all soon, no need to experiment with these basic improvements.