Is this Paphiopedilum helenae x spicerianum (P. Hengduan Sweetheart)?

[Slipperphotographer]

I’m hoping you might be able to help me out.

I bought a plant 3 or 4 years back from a nursery call Orchidejos in Lithuania. It was sold to me as P. helenae x spicerianum. A couple of fellow growers questioned this after seeing the flowers, but I didn’t really think any more about it. I really liked the flower so I’ve continued to take good care of it ever since.

However, now it’s a mature specimen and has 12 spikes and I’d really like to put it forward to the RHS Committee for judging. To support my submission, I’d hoped the nursery I bought it from could send me photos of other plants of the same cross…. but they don’t have any.

I’ve attacheed a photo in all its glory. Next judging is early October, so all 12 spikes should be flowering at the right time.

It would be great to hear your thoughts. The more support I have, the better my chances of a CCC. It would be such a shame for it not to be awarded!

 

[mrhappyrotter]

I can believe it's a hybrid involving Paph. helenae. However, sans context, I'd also question the ID being Hengduan Sweetheart (though I might not have ever mentioned it unless asked and I'm not really an expert on this hybrid).

Given that some pigmentation from the non-helenae ancestry is showing up in the dorsal, I would expect there to be much stronger and more evident centralized clustering of spots (or even a stripe) if this plant was truly 50% spicerianum. Additionally, I would expect there to be some degree of undulation or contortion in the staminode if the hybrid was 50% spicerianum.

My first reaction is that there was probably something like Paph. insigne (or a closely related species) in the ancestry, though I wouldn't entirely rule out the chance of there also being some spicerianum in it. Paph. Leeanum is a widely available hybrid between insigne and spicerianum, for what it's worth. Perhaps that was used instead of spicerianum? Or perhaps the "spicerianum" that was used was not a pure spicerianum.

 

[Slipperphotographer]

I can believe it's a hybrid involving Paph. helenae. However, sans context, I'd also question the ID being Hengduan Sweetheart (though I might not have ever mentioned it unless asked and I'm not really an expert on this hybrid).

Given that some pigmentation from the non-helenae ancestry is showing up in the dorsal, I would expect there to be much stronger and more evident centralized clustering of spots (or even a stripe) if this plant was truly 50% spicerianum. Additionally, I would expect there to be some degree of undulation or contortion in the staminode if the hybrid was 50% spicerianum.

My first reaction is that there was probably something like Paph. insigne (or a closely related species) in the ancestry, though I wouldn't entirely rule out the chance of there also being some spicerianum in it. Paph. Leeanum is a widely available hybrid between insigne and spicerianum, for what it's worth. Perhaps that was used instead of spicerianum? Or perhaps the "spicerianum" that was used was not a pure spicerianum.

A really useful assessment.... although not entirely what I was hoping for! Thank you.

 

[mrhappyrotter]

A really useful assessment.... although not entirely what I was hoping for! Thank you.

You're welcome. It'll be interesting to see other STers' opinions on the ID and its accuracy, definitely doesn't hurt to remain optimistic. Out of curiosity, did the fellow growers you already spoke with suggest any speculative alternatives on the ID?

 

[Slipperphotographer]

Nobody has suggested an alternative. I spoke with Mariano at the Eric Young Foundation, and he says to trust the nursery. He thinks there's every chance it could be what they sold it as.

 

[TyroneGenade]

My first thought was also an insigne cross. I don't see any spicerianum in this.

Here is a Sweetheart: Paph. Hengduan Sweetheart (spicerianum x helenae) and looks much like one would expect. I can't see why a primary cross should have so much variation as to produce flowers that look like your and this one.

Hengduan does have an helenae x insigne cross but can't recall the name or find a photo.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

Gorgeous plant. Well grown and flowered.

I hate to be bearer of bad news but spicerianum is rarely not dominant for dorsal with a purple stripe in the middle in its hybrids.

I would agree with Tyrone and think it’s helenae cross with insigne (due to spotting and long leaves) called Madame Suzanne Deloy.

Also consider possibly helenae with barbigerum or charlesworthii (similar flower shape but not so much the leaves).

Good luck at judging!

 

[Paphluvr]

Dr. Ee expressed my first impression, that spicerianum hybrids are almost always dominate for the purple stripe in the dorsal. Well grown and flowered whatever it is.

 

[Ozpaph]

no spicerianum in that flower, IMHO.

 

[MichaelTibbs]

My first thought was also an insigne cross. I don't see any spicerianum in this.

Here is a Sweetheart: Paph. Hengduan Sweetheart (spicerianum x helenae) and looks much like one would expect. I can't see why a primary cross should have so much variation as to produce flowers that look like your and this one.

Hengduan does have an helenae x insigne cross but can't recall the name or find a photo.

I agree

 

[JRO]

I don’t see P. helenae here at all. It looks like a P. barbigerum hybrid, maybe barbigerum x insigne

 

[TyroneGenade]

This is helenae x insigne: 清酒「月桂冠　・　月」 - 蘭とペットと時々　「道楽」

This is the barbigerum cross, Wössner Zwerg : 20124725 - Paph. Wossner Zwerg 'Yakman' HCC/AOS (78 points) 9-15-2012.jpg by the_aos_cjc .

 

[Guldal]

This is helenae x insigne: 清酒「月桂冠　・　月」 - 蘭とペットと時々　「道楽」

This is the barbigerum cross, Wössner Zwerg : 20124725 - Paph. Wossner Zwerg 'Yakman' HCC/AOS (78 points) 9-15-2012.jpg by the_aos_cjc .

Bob, bob, bob....potaeto, potaaato....

Helenae fma. aureum x insigne?

 

[MichaelTibbs]

I agree

 

[Ozpaph]

not that

 

[Slipperphotographer]

Thank you for all you suggestions and feedback. From speaking to several experienced growers in the UK (thanks Mariano Medda at the the Eric Young Orchid Foundation), Europe (the Michael Tibbs) and the US (thank you Jerry Fischer), the winner is.... Paph Insigne x helenae! I'll let you know how the awards go and if it gets anything. Thanks again. Paul

 

[TyroneGenade]

If the plant has a hengduan origin you should contact them and ask them what they think.

 

[Slipperphotographer]

If the plant has a hengduan origin you should contact them and ask them what they think.

Great idea! Thank you.