Is this the typical size for a schlimii hybrid?

[Morja]

This is a division of Phrag. Coral Jewel 'Seagrove Barrier Reef' AM/AOS. I got it specifically because it was so compact (and the blooms should be very cute!), but the few pictures I have seen of the sargentianum X schlimii cross don't seem to show such small plants- though I am having trouble finding much for pictures online in general. I am pretty new to phrags, but I know most lean toward being massive, though schlimii is smaller, which could explain this one's size. As far as inconsistency in the sizes of plants I have seen, are the sizes of hybrids pretty random? Also, do any of you have schlimii hybrids of similar size?

 

[littlefrog]

Doesn't look that unusual for a schlimii hybrid to me. I was just potting up some schlimii x kovachii seedlings a couple of hours ago, and one plant was quite large (at least a foot across), and the others were all less than 8" across. They vary quite a bit, even out of the same flask. Will the little ones catch up to the big one? Maybe. I don't expect it though..

A lot of phrags will bloom on small plants and increase in leafspan as they age. And some don't... Your plant is definitely of a size that could bloom at any time. Looks quite healthy, and judging by the leaf color it is getting sufficient light.

 

[Morja]

Doesn't look that unusual for a schlimii hybrid to me. I was just potting up some schlimii x kovachii seedlings a couple of hours ago, and one plant was quite large (at least a foot across), and the others were all less than 8" across. They vary quite a bit, even out of the same flask. Will the little ones catch up to the big one? Maybe. I don't expect it though..

A lot of phrags will bloom on small plants and increase in leafspan as they age. And some don't... Your plant is definitely of a size that could bloom at any time. Looks quite healthy, and judging by the leaf color it is getting sufficient light.

Thank you, this helps! I appreciate the comment about light, too, as I always worry about that. It's sending up 3 new growths from its base already and at a good rate, so I know it can't be too unhappy. I love this little plant!

 

[mrhappyrotter]

On the topic of vegetative size: Phrag. sargentianum is a highly variable species, with plants that range in size from compact/manageable all the way up to enormous monsters. Similarly, its primary hybrids can be variable in size depending on selection of the sargentianum used.

My experience with Phrag. schlimii, at least the standard varieties, is that environmental factors seem to have more significant impact on the size of the foliage than in many/most other Phrags I've grown. Divisions of the exact same plant can have leaves that are remarkably different in length and width from one another when grown in different locations. I don't see this phenomenon as strongly in schlimii hybrids, but it still occurs to some degree, at least some times.

A phenomenon known as hybrid vigor can also come into play, where a particular hybrid seems to grow noticeably larger than either of the parent species. This effect seems to be particularly prominent in hybrids involving species from section micropetalum (i.e. schlimii).

Also note that Phrag taxonomy is notoriously messy. There's not necessarily consensus on Phrag. sargentianum and Phrag. schlimii versus all the different varieties or sister species. I won't bog you down with that too much, just mentioning it because it could play a role in terms of this discussion. Plus, your plant was awarded in 2002, and views on these things were (or seemed) a bit different than they do now, 20+years later.

As for compact sized Phrags, look for hybrids with lots of Phrag. fischerii influence in them. It's generally considered the smallest or one of the smallest Phrags and seems to impart that in its hybrids. Other small Phrags include pearcei and klotzschianum. For long petalled hybrids, those with Phrag. lindenii, Phrag. warscewiczianum (wallisii), and Phrag. humboldtii (which has a myriad former/current names) are good options as well. Hybrids with sargentianum and longifolium are typically best to avoid if small size is a must, but both have varieties/cultivars that stay small, so it's honestly a crap shoot without doing some digging.

 

[clearsky57]

I don't remember if i have any primaries, between the two plants, but i do have multiple of both...(more schlimii, than sargentianaum... ) my schlimii's tend to stay in their pots... maybe 7 or 8" in length (leaves) and the flower spikes are not terribly high. I actually like their growth and tend to lean towards crosses where fischerii, or similar species are used, over going to the bigs crossed with tiny's so i suppose not much help here to you..,
i will look over my plants to see if i have something like what you are speaking about.

 

[Morja]

On the topic of vegetative size: Phrag. sargentianum is a highly variable species, with plants that range in size from compact/manageable all the way up to enormous monsters. Similarly, its primary hybrids can be variable in size depending on selection of the sargentianum used.

My experience with Phrag. schlimii, at least the standard varieties, is that environmental factors seem to have more significant impact on the size of the foliage than in many/most other Phrags I've grown. Divisions of the exact same plant can have leaves that are remarkably different in length and width from one another when grown in different locations. I don't see this phenomenon as strongly in schlimii hybrids, but it still occurs to some degree, at least some times.

A phenomenon known as hybrid vigor can also come into play, where a particular hybrid seems to grow noticeably larger than either of the parent species. This effect seems to be particularly prominent in hybrids involving species from section micropetalum (i.e. schlimii).

Also note that Phrag taxonomy is notoriously messy. There's not necessarily consensus on Phrag. sargentianum and Phrag. schlimii versus all the different varieties or sister species. I won't bog you down with that too much, just mentioning it because it could play a role in terms of this discussion. Plus, your plant was awarded in 2002, and views on these things were (or seemed) a bit different than they do now, 20+years later.

As for compact sized Phrags, look for hybrids with lots of Phrag. fischerii influence in them. It's generally considered the smallest or one of the smallest Phrags and seems to impart that in its hybrids. Other small Phrags include pearcei and klotzschianum. For long petalled hybrids, those with Phrag. lindenii, Phrag. warscewiczianum (wallisii), and Phrag. humboldtii (which has a myriad former/current names) are good options as well. Hybrids with sargentianum and longifolium are typically best to avoid if small size is a must, but both have varieties/cultivars that stay small, so it's honestly a crap shoot without doing some digging.

Fascinating info that I probably never would have found via googling alone, thank you! I didn't know about the others that tend toward being compact. I know phrags are challenging along those lines so I'll take all the info I can get there until I have the space for monsters someday. I did have my eye on the small version of humboldtii on Ecuagenera. Though if I bought any more plants right now my husband would probably die.
The brief mention of taxonomy is also fascinating. I guess there wouldn't be a way to tell that the parent plant claims were questionable according to today's terms unless something in the blooms or plant was very obvious. Taxonomy might be a fun rabbit hole to go down sometime regardless, though it might give me a headache! Haha.

 

[Morja]

I don't remember if i have any primaries, between the two plants, but i do have multiple of both...(more schlimii, than sargentianaum... ) my schlimii's tend to stay in their pots... maybe 7 or 8" in length (leaves) and the flower spikes are not terribly high. I actually like their growth and tend to lean towards crosses where fischerii, or similar species are used, over going to the bigs crossed with tiny's so i suppose not much help here to you..,
i will look over my plants to see if i have something like what you are speaking about.

Thank you!!

 

[mrhappyrotter]

Fascinating info that I probably never would have found via googling alone, thank you! I didn't know about the others that tend toward being compact. I know phrags are challenging along those lines so I'll take all the info I can get there until I have the space for monsters someday. I did have my eye on the small version of humboldtii on Ecuagenera. Though if I bought any more plants right now my husband would probably die.
The brief mention of taxonomy is also fascinating. I guess there wouldn't be a way to tell that the parent plant claims were questionable according to today's terms unless something in the blooms or plant was very obvious. Taxonomy might be a fun rabbit hole to go down sometime regardless, though it might give me a headache! Haha.

The person/business to whom this cultivar was awarded is still around and in operation: Seagrove Orchids (http://www.seagroveorchids.com). You might reach out to Linda and see if she has any more information. Probably not given the age of the plant, but worth a shot. And besides, who knows what other helpful / interesting nuggets she might provide.

I mostly try to stay out of the taxonomy conversations -- too many folks with overly strong opinions and questionable dispositions when it comes to the topic -- but I did want to mention it since part of the discussion involves Phrags that are subject to some controversy in a taxonomic sense. I will say that Phrag. humboldtii and relatives are also a pretty big taxonomic mess. Schlimii and fischerii are considered the same species by some but different species by others, and there's a lot of disagreement and confusion regarding what constitutes sargentianum versus lindleyanum versus one being a variety of the other or something altogether different. Yuck.

Also another suggestion: Phrag. Pink Panther (schlimii x fischerii) is one that typically stays quite small by Phrag standards, is fairly easy to find (though that can vary) without being terribly costly, is fairly easy to grow, and blooms frequently once they get enough growths on them. The only "downside" is that Pink Panther tends not to be fragrant or only very faintly so, where as schlimii and many of its other hybrids carry a wonderful rose fragrance.

 

[Morja]

The person/business to whom this cultivar was awarded is still around and in operation: Seagrove Orchids (http://www.seagroveorchids.com). You might reach out to Linda and see if she has any more information. Probably not given the age of the plant, but worth a shot. And besides, who knows what other helpful / interesting nuggets she might provide.

I mostly try to stay out of the taxonomy conversations -- too many folks with overly strong opinions and questionable dispositions when it comes to the topic -- but I did want to mention it since part of the discussion involves Phrags that are subject to some controversy in a taxonomic sense. I will say that Phrag. humboldtii and relatives are also a pretty big taxonomic mess. Schlimii and fischerii are considered the same species by some but different species by others, and there's a lot of disagreement and confusion regarding what constitutes sargentianum versus lindleyanum versus one being a variety of the other or something altogether different. Yuck.

Also another suggestion: Phrag. Pink Panther (schlimii x fischerii) is one that typically stays quite small by Phrag standards, is fairly easy to find (though that can vary) without being terribly costly, is fairly easy to grow, and blooms frequently once they get enough growths on them. The only "downside" is that Pink Panther tends not to be fragrant or only very faintly so, where as schlimii and many of its other hybrids carry a wonderful rose fragrance.

Thank you, great info! I did have a lengthy email conversation with Linda when I bought the plant, but I suppose I didn't want to bother her for a while with more questions. She probably wouldn't mind though! Being that she is the expert on this plant and she told me it was one of her favorites.