Legal vs. Illegal

[SlipperKing]

Here is this other list I spoke of; The second list makes absolutely no sense! Paph platyphyllum has been here forever! The clone 'Ruth Kennedy' has been selfed a number of times and the plants are growing the greenhouses of America. Helenae and vietnamense has already been cleared and what about lynniae, kalinae and tigrinum?

Paphs since 1990 (Cannot judge):
anitum
gigantifolium
hangianum
helenae
hiepii
jackii
kalinae
lynniae
ooii
platyphyllum
tigrinum (1990)
tranlienianum
vietnamense


By Section:
Paphiopedilum
helenae
tigrinum (1990) ???
tranlienianum

Parvisepalum
hangianum
hiepii
jackii
vietnamense

Cochlopetalum
kalinae

Polyantha
anitum
gigantifolium
lynniae
ooii

 

[naoki]

AOS does have "interesting" policy as usual.

Isn't there quite a few more speices which were discovered since 1990? I'm not completely sure about whether they are recognized as species or not now, but for example, there are P. vejvarutianum, areeanum (syn. rhizomatosum), chaoi, sugiyamanum, dixlerianum, parnatanum etc.

 

[slippertalker]

I still would like to know how a judge or organization reached such a conclusion. I re-checked the CITES trade database and, in fact, according to CITES, from 2001 to 2009, 14 cultures (flasks) and 56 live gigantifolium plants were imported into the USA. Additionally according to the USFWS hundreds of un-identified Paphiopedilum species were legally imported into the USA. Glen's plants may be in this quantity but I would be willing to bet not all of them went to Glen!

Glen's gigantifolium was imported from Germany with CITES paperwork from their authorities. It was legally done, but without documentation from the original country of origin. All of the other shipments cleared customs but according to USFWS the paperwork doesn't meet their criterion. It is a case of multiple government agencies not working together. Also USFWS is being selective as to their enforcement efforts much of it due to budget restrictions.

It is certainly a messy problem with peril for anyone involved. The AOS is basically trying to prevent any legal issues.

 

[mormodes]

I wouldn't know what a real CITES certificate looks like. Never seen one.

 

[Cheyenne]

Glen's gigantifolium was imported from Germany with CITES paperwork from their authorities. It was legally done, but without documentation from the original country of origin. All of the other shipments cleared customs but according to USFWS the paperwork doesn't meet their criterion. It is a case of multiple government agencies not working together. Also USFWS is being selective as to their enforcement efforts much of it due to budget restrictions.

It is certainly a messy problem with peril for anyone involved. The AOS is basically trying to prevent any legal issues.

But of course gigantifolium is not native to germany so how are his legal.

 

[gonewild]

I wouldn't know what a real CITES certificate looks like. Never seen one.

USFW inspectors have a CITES procedure manual they follow. In that manual are samples of each countries CITES certificates so they have them to compare to. If you are interested you can read the manual online.

 

[gonewild]

But of course gigantifolium is not native to germany so how are his legal.

Because the USFW CITES authority allowed it to pass at the time. Not likely to happen again.

The new problem is as I said, now with the Lacey Act. Even though the CITES inspector passed entry into the USA there could be an underlying problem in the "legality" of the progeny of the species. Offspring of illegally obtained species are illegal "forever"..... Everything is up to USFW and how they decide to enforce it. And that policy can change as fast as the weather.

 

[Cheyenne]

Because the USFW CITES authority allowed it to pass at the time. Not likely to happen again.

The new problem is as I said, now with the Lacey Act. Even though the CITES inspector passed entry into the USA there could be an underlying problem in the "legality" of the progeny of the species. Offspring of illegally obtained species are illegal "forever"..... Everything is up to USFW and how they decide to enforce it. And that policy can change as fast as the weather.

Well all I can say is we heard today that gigantifolium from piping rock are legal, PERIOD. I have two gig from piping rock, and when they reach blooming size, which should not be that long. I am going to self them and sib them. I will get as many flasks as physically possible and send them to every person that will take them. That is all I can do on my end. I hope people get on board and do that with any of the other species, like the anitum that came in pre–cites as adductum.

 

[Stone]

This is crap.

I would have said gobbledygook but yes crap will do:rollhappy:

 

[Gcroz]

Because the USFW CITES authority allowed it to pass at the time. Not likely to happen again.

The new problem is as I said, now with the Lacey Act. Even though the CITES inspector passed entry into the USA there could be an underlying problem in the "legality" of the progeny of the species. Offspring of illegally obtained species are illegal "forever"..... Everything is up to USFW and how they decide to enforce it. And that policy can change as fast as the weather.

Man, this topic makes me hot under the collar! If the CITES inspector allowed the entry,the plant should be legal. Forget "illegal 'forever'" that is quite honestly not true. If the plants were allowed into the USA, for example the WOC hangianums, ownership is legal, but commerce in them is not (this is how it was explained to me). Legally, if you trade in the no-no species, you risk the punishments, and those that own "rescue centers" reap the benefits of your labor. It's a very tidy arrangement for the "rescue-centers" and the Government!

EDIT: Because I become agitated about this topic, please assume that anything I say that may be mean or rude is not directed at anyone on this board

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

Technically, the only P. delanatii that are legal would be the ones from the original Lecoufle line. All the post-"rediscovery" delanatii's from vietnam should be illegal. but practically, that's impossible to enforce, given the large amount of delanatii plants already present before the new Vietnamese plants appeared. Same way, vietnamense and helenae should only be legal if they can be traced back to the progeny of the rescue plants propagated by Antec. But once something is legal, it becomes a mess tracing them all....so, essentially, those 2 species are legal. Both album and vinicolor (Dunkel) are named varieties of a legal species, delanatii, so, again, it's too much of a hassle to differentiate them. But anitum and jackii were originally claimed to be species in their own right, and named as such...(in fact, are still considered by some as separate species), so therefore they are illegal. The "variety" concept has been used as a cover...many years ago I saw plants of helenae sold as "barbigerum var. helenae", and rhizomatosum/areeanum/vejvarutianum sold as barbigerum, even though they are huge compared to a typical barb.

 

[eggshells]

Are paph intaniae legal in the US?

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

Not if they were named post 1990.

 

[SlipperKing]

The intaniae that just sold on ebay went for a pretty penny!

 

[SlipperKing]

AOS must be working off of this chart

 

[Paul Mc]

WOW!!! This thread has made me extremely nervous. How are the regular folk supposed to know what is legal and what is not! I could only follow half of what was being said here, despite my love for Paph's. I checked every tag this morning, but since some are hybrids, the do not list all parentage. Hope I'm not a simple man that became a criminal overnight!

 

[KyushuCalanthe]

Hope I'm not a simple man that became a criminal overnight!

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it :rollhappy: If you are selling plants then you need to careful, but otherwise I don't think the slipper police will be knocking anytime soon.

Still, this whole thing really is a circus. By the time anything is sorted out, there could be untold thousands of plants in country anyway. And what contorted ways of handling plants that got in "by mistake" or are official because they have been processed through "rescue centers"! Wow...

Meanwhile, plants in the wild go on being collected. I know it is just kicking a dead horse to discuss this topic, but how frustrating can you get?

 

[gonewild]

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it :rollhappy: If you are selling plants then you need to careful, but otherwise I don't think the slipper police will be knocking anytime soon.

Still, this whole thing really is a circus. By the time anything is sorted out, there could be untold thousands of plants in country anyway. And what contorted ways of handling plants that got in "by mistake" or are official because they have been processed through "rescue centers"! Wow...

Meanwhile, plants in the wild go on being collected. I know it is just kicking a dead horse to discuss this topic, but how frustrating can you get?

The way the Lacey Act amendant (2008) was written plants produced by rescue centers are probably no longer legal to commercialize. (I said probably).

 

[KyushuCalanthe]

The way the Lacey Act amendant (2008) was written plants produced by rescue centers are probably no longer legal to commercialize. (I said probably).

Oh good, well, err, that clarifies things

 

[cnycharles]

if things are muddy, then they can change their tune at any time depending on how or what they want to enforce