Mini sanderianum?

[littlefrog]

So, I found a sanderianum when I was looking for something else. Literally wouldn't know it was in bloom otherwise. It is a three flowered sanderianum at about half scale. picture isn't very good. Not sure if it is a genetic dwarf or my culture is poor... . It must be a strong grower because I'm bad at growing them.

So, if you were a breeder, would you self it to see if anything smaller comes out (miniature sanderianum could be cool), cross it to a much larger sanderianum, or put it on shelf and pretend it never happened?

If you wanted to hybridize it, what would you cross it to if you had access to almost any kind of pollen? I have a refrigerator full of pollen...

 

[TyroneGenade]

Self it! I would love a mini-sanderianum.

Crossing it to a compact phil or lowi might be interesting.

 

[Linus_Cello]

I concur. Cross with
Paph. philippinense var. laevigatum

Crossing it to a compact phil or lowi might be interesting.

 

[big923cattleya]

A few hybrids come to mind. I am not looking at the records in order to see if they have been done before.
Mini Sanderianum
X micranthum
X niveum
X hangianum
X the smaller variety of philippinense
X henryanum
X charlesworthii
X spicerianum

 

[eds]

First thing I would do is self it to see if it is truly genetic or simply an isolated issue with this plant. After that then experiment with crosses once you know it is a heritable feature.

 

[Morja]

Self it so we can all buy one if it's truly genetically small! I would totally love a mini version of a sandy

 

[spujr]

So, I found a sanderianum when I was looking for something else. Literally wouldn't know it was in bloom otherwise. It is a three flowered sanderianum at about half scale. picture isn't very good. Not sure if it is a genetic dwarf or my culture is poor... . It must be a strong grower because I'm bad at growing them.

So, if you were a breeder, would you self it to see if anything smaller comes out (miniature sanderianum could be cool), cross it to a much larger sanderianum, or put it on shelf and pretend it never happened?

If you wanted to hybridize it, what would you cross it to if you had access to almost any kind of pollen? I have a refrigerator full of pollen...View attachment 42585

Sam had a sanderianum variety named 'Mini' AQ/AOS, is it possible this is it?

 

[littlefrog]

Sam had a sanderianum variety named 'Mini' AQ/AOS, is it possible this is it?

I don't think so. Not sure where I got it but I've had it for a few years at least.

 

[littlefrog]

First thing I would do is self it to see if it is truly genetic or simply an isolated issue with this plant. After that then experiment with crosses once you know it is a heritable feature.

That's what I was thinking. Maybe do hybrids with it the next time it blooms if it stays small.

 

[spujr]

Personally I would either self it or store the pollen to see if another mini parent pops up.

I think there was a recent post on sanderianum backcrossed to a philxsand to produce a Mini-like sanderianum.

 

[big923cattleya]

Hey Rob,
If Sam got an AQ on a group of smaller growing Sanderianums, maybe you do have one. For all of our forum viewers, an AQ is granted to a group of 12 plants. One of which, one plant from that group of twelve, must get a flower quality award at that judging in order to be granted the AQ.
What would really be cool is if you have the awarded clone. But if you have 1 of the 12, that may prove useful if you make crosses with it.

 

[mrhappyrotter]

Miniature Paph. sanderianum would be AMAZING, so my fingers are crossed that's what we're looking at as opposed to a precocious blooming seedling (not necessarily a bad thing either, but they can sometimes bloom themselves to death) or a plant that bloomed as a result of stress/poor health.

In addition to the several dozen hybrid suggestions already presented to you, I would love to see a miniature sanderianum crossed with P. anitum as well as P. wilhelminae if you were theoretically going to hybridize with it. Otherwise, I would recommend embracing its special size and selfing it or crossing it with other smaller growing examples of this species. Just don't self it now, not that you would -- give it some time to develop into a larger plant with more growths first.

Good luck either way!

 

[Tom-DE]

Rob, I suspect yours may not be a pure sanderianum. It is just my two cents. To me, it is more like a MK or MK back crossed with sanderianum ... The dorsal and leaves don't look right to me either.
@ size, the sanderianums from labs normally don't grow as big as the ones in wild...unlike the modern rothchildianum from labs, which are huge with 50+ inch LS. (*I am not talking about your plant here, it is just the fact about sanderianum from the labs)

 

[littlefrog]

Rob, I suspect yours may not be a pure sanderianum. It is just my two cents. To me, it is more like a MK or MK back crossed with sanderianum ... The dorsal and leaves don't look right to me either.
@ size, the sanderianums from labs normally don't grow as big as the ones in wild...unlike the modern rothchildianum from labs, which are huge with 50+ inch LS. (*I am not talking about your plant here, it is just the fact about sanderianum from the labs)

Interesting.

 

[spujr]

What's the petal length? Hybrids and backcrossed lines usually don't have the length of the pure species. The pouch color looks a little dark for something with philippinese in it, but hard to judge from pictures and I'm not good at subtle taxonomy differences.

 

[littlefrog]

It is still expanding the petals. 40cm or so already.

 

[Tom-DE]

It is still expanding the petals. 40cm or so already.

The flower form and petal length are not up to the type species' standard so far IMO, do give us more updates.
What is the LS? No matter what, it is nice to have.
@spujr, the pouch color on Rob's is pretty light for sanderianum. Also, not all the MK x sanderianum have light-colored pouches either.

 

[My Green Pets]

I'd cross it to philippinense as other have suggested.
And I'd put pollen on it from any other long-petaled Paph hybrid you might have.

 

[tnyr5]

If, by your own admission, you're "bad at growing them", though not THAT bad if it's blooming, I'm inclined to think it's just cultural.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

A Pygmy sanderianum population would be great, but in my eyes the plant looks a bit weak with one growth and leaves dehydrated and bent. Poor thing.

I agree with Tony that this might be a cultural issue and this is one last ditch attempt to procreate the ‘species’. Best to save pollen. A selfing now will surely be the plant’s demise.

As for the ID, need better pics of staminode and overall flower?