Most difficult Paph species?

[Shiva]

IMO every serious paph grower has to have a few roths and sandies in his collection. I have five of each including a roth in low bud that seems to have changed its mind for now and decided to send new shoots instead. Patience is really much needed these days.

 

[Rick]

No but you can use that information to give you a good idea as to how much salinity they have evolved with or are receiving.

Or try this one. Marine water has an EC of ~ 50,000us/cm and it's TDS is made up of roughly 70% NaCL.

So by your logic I should be able to put salt water organisms into any salt solution with an EC of 50,000 us/cm.???

But what we (every tox lab in the world that has tried it) have observed is that if you put salt water evolved organisms into a salt solution that is made up from 100% NaCl, with an EC of 50,000 us/cm, that these organisms will be dead in roughly 48 hours. Until we add back a portion of the other 30% salt species (Mg, Ca, K, SO4) you cannot get salt water evolved organisms to survive in a salt solution at EC 50,000. Furthermore it takes a combination of all 4 of the major cations to make it work (you can't just take 2 or 3).

The practical application of this came from the major salt manufactures. They have huge piles of refined NaCL that are exposed to rainwater. So they have to monitor the stormwater that comes off the salt piles (even if it goes into the ocean). They use EC meters to keep track of how much "salt" comes off the pile and assumed that 50,000 was "safe" since that's the same as ocean water. So they were convinced that the toxicity of their stormwater release was due to something other than salt (like trace copper), but we figured out it was just the salt imbalance.

EC is such a huge paint brush. Its like saying that because plants are GREEN, and I eat plants, I should be able to ingest anything GREEN and thrive on it.

But for purposes of calibrating the strength of a proven salt solution it is an invaluable, cheap and easy tool.

 

[Stone]

So by your logic I should be able to put salt water organisms into any salt solution with an EC of 50,000 us/cm.???

No, No, Thats not my logic! As I said, its important to determine the combination of elements needed by any organism as well as the strength. 50ppm of N would obviously give you different results than 50ppm of Zn!
But too high an EC (of any salt) will cause the plant to divert energy from growth to trying to maintain its water supply and growth slows. The concentration of salts inside the roots (in solution) is usually much higher than that surrounding the roots and water moves into the roots. The higher the EC outside the roots the more difficult for the plant to absorb water until you reach a stage where the reverse happens. ( I think this can happen more often than we think) Thats why I believe knowing the optimum EC for the plant is so important. And apparently for many of things we're trying to grow, it's very low. Its much easier to make a mistake with fert strength than with fert balance.
Feeding once a week, twice a week, once a month, leaching or not, drying out or not, guessing how much you're putting in the water etc. etc. all have a profound effect.

But for purposes of calibrating the strength of a proven salt solution it is an invaluable, cheap and easy tool.[/

Right on

 

[NYEric]

IMO every serious paph grower has to have a few roths and sandies in his collection. I have five of each including a roth in low bud that seems to have changed its mind for now and decided to send new shoots instead. Patience is really much needed these days.

Hmmm.. I dont have any!

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

Mutant- You can always find room for parishii. It doesn't require as much light to bloom, can do with the same light intensity as haynaldianum, which does well for me in the same place as barbata's. Just needs it cooler. It's not easy, but at least I've been able to bloom it...I can't even bloom a roth hybrid.

 

[The Mutant]

Mutant- You can always find room for parishii. It doesn't require as much light to bloom, can do with the same light intensity as haynaldianum, which does well for me in the same place as barbata's. Just needs it cooler. It's not easy, but at least I've been able to bloom it...I can't even bloom a roth hybrid.

I think I'll wait before getting any more multifloras. I have those that I REALLY want (except Chiu Hua Dancer) but I'm still short on some more barbata species and a helenae.

 

[Stone]

The "salinity" of what the plants evolved to is not relevant to the "salinity" you are exposing them too with fertilizer.

I can't believe that you could think that!!


EC of extraxt of medium for very sensitive spp. no higher than 1.8 dS/m
Eg. Begonia,strawberry,primula

EC of extract of medium for very tolerant spp. no higher than 13 dS/m
Eg. Tamarix, Salt bush.

Try feeding very sensitive spp with EC of 13 dS/m and see how relevant their
adaptation is.

Every plant has evolved to tolerate certain levels of salinity and it has everything to do with fert salinity.

 

[Susie11]

I don't know why, but I'm completely sold on roths and I've never even laid eyes on a blooming one IRL! :rollhappy:

Parishii are very VERY cute, but since I have limited space I can't get too many multifloras and since I've been invaded by roths, there's just no room left. I would love a lowii though, and a Bernice, and a Chiu Hua Dancer, and... Ah, well, you see how bad I've got it, right? :wink:

For now I have a philippinenense var. roebelenii BS from Elsner that would have bloomed if I hadn't let it dry out too much, a MK that might bloom next year if I'm lucky, and a PEoY that's estimated to reach BS in 3-4 years. There will be some time before I'll see any multifloras IRL in other words. :rollhappy:

I have decided what I want to order from Sam when he comes back in the spring, a P.E.oY and a lowii. I have decided that I shall give a few more multis a go seeing as my parishii is still alive after five months and is also growing it's first new leaf!

You might change your mind if you ever bloom one. There's nothing like it!

Bill

Hmm well I am going to get a Roth hybrid next year, I am getting a PEoY! So that is like getting the King and Queen of paphs. If that one does well in my care I shall then get the real deal...'If'...

 

[Rick]

Every plant has evolved to tolerate certain levels of salinity and it has everything to do with fert salinity.

I agree that every plant (and animal) has evolved to tolerate certain levels of salinity, but the point you keep missing is that the "salinity" they have evolved to tolerate is a very specific mixture of anions and cations (which is generally very different from that mix in ferts).

Brachy's, like niveum and godefroyae are from coastal ecosystems and have evolved to handle ocean spray ("high salinity"). But they don't seem to be tolerant of high EC fertilizer concentrations or build up of "salts" in the potting mix. This notion has been passed down through paph growers for years. But you are welcome to debunk this notion if you want to sacrifice the plants.

I wouldn't be surprised if saltbush is any more tolerant of high levels of fert than brachy's just because it can tolerate high levels of sodium chloride. And has anyone tried growing salt bush with a solution of nothing but potassium chloride?

 

[Stone]

I agree that every plant (and animal) has evolved to tolerate certain levels of salinity, but the point you keep missing is that the "salinity" they have evolved to tolerate is a very specific mixture of anions and cations (which is generally very different from that mix in ferts).

Are you saying that as long as your ion mix is right then EC can go high without effects? Forget about the specific effects of specific ions for a moment. I'm talking about the effect ANY salt in high concentration has on the osmotic potential of the roots way before it can have a specific effect on the plant such as burned leaves or whatever.

Brachy's, like niveum and godefroyae are from coastal ecosystems and have evolved to handle ocean spray ("high salinity"). But they don't seem to be tolerant of high EC fertilizer concentrations or build up of "salts" in the potting mix. This notion has been passed down through paph growers for years. But you are welcome to debunk this notion if you want to sacrifice the plants.

I am a little skeptical that brachys see too much NaCl at their roots deep down in the rock fissures. True their leaves would by adapted to sea spray like many seaside plants. The amount of fresh water from rain they recieve would far outweigh the saltwater at the roots But if what you say is true, they should be able to handle a slug of sea water poured on them in the pot. I would surprised if they survived 24 hours.

I wouldn't be surprised if saltbush is any more tolerant of high levels of fert than brachy's just because it can tolerate high levels of sodium chloride. And has anyone tried growing salt bush with a solution of nothing but potassium chloride?

I have a long list of plants and their tolerance to salinity ranging from very sensitive to very tolerant. The tolerant ones are those which evolved mainly around maritime ecosystems or low rainfall high salinity (NaCl) areas.
As it happens, these tolerant plants are also listed as tolerant to pot salinity from fertilizers.

 

[Rick]

Are you saying that as long as your ion mix is right then EC can go high without effects? Forget about the specific effects of specific ions for a moment. I'm talking about the effect ANY salt in high concentration has on the osmotic potential of the roots way before it can have a specific effect on the plant such as burned leaves or whatever.

Salts aren't all the same for osmotic effects or narcotic effects. And the different ions interact in different competative ways.

There are always limits to maximum TDS tolerance, but a little calcium goes a long way maximize the tolerance to NaCL, KCL, and other monovalent salts.

Did you miss the example of the salt water fish/shrimp.

Sea water composition of major ions = 50,000 us/cm organisms OK.

50,000us/cm of sodium chloride solution only = dead in 48 hours.

 

[Rick]

http://redsalinidad.com.ar/assets/files/revisiones/lauchli grattan.pdf

Here's a paper on "salt" tolerance specific to plants.

However on pg 12 the effects to rice exposed to straight NaCL versus synthetic sea salt are pretty much the same as for the topsmelt and mysid shrimp examples I gave.

Later in the text there are highlights how effects change based on other ion concentrations (particularly Ca).

Basically the agricrops covered in this work behave in similar ways to the critters I work with (barring absolute magnitude of effect for individual species).

 

[NYEric]

Answer: canhii! :evil:

 

[Cheyenne]

Eric, now I know that you are not saying that from personal experience. :evil:

 

[eggshells]

Answer: canhii! :evil:

Were you able to find one?? You don't have to answer if you can't publicly! Send me a PM!:drool:

 

[NYEric]

I'll send you a PM.

 

[Cheyenne]

Eggshells, didn't someone in Canada post one a while ago, I thought it was John. I could be wrong, but I remember thinking it must be nice to live in Canada and be able to get stuff like that. So there must be a source.

 

[eggshells]

Hmm no I don't remember. If not I haven't seen it. I want this species now!