Yoyo_Jo
Catt's Meow
I love him even more now. :smitten: He was born on my birthday. A few years after me of course. :wink:
My shadow
- Thread starter John M
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Nice. Is he a rough collie/border collie mix?
John M
Orchid Addict
When I got him, I was told that he was a border collie/black lab mix. But, the vet has him listed as a border collie/german shepherd mix in their files. I don't see any black lab in him; but, I don't see the german shepherd so much, either. So, I'm not sure of anything other than collie. There's definitely collie in him; but, what kind? He is VERY VERY smart, which is a trait of border collies. He house trained within a couple hours of his arrival at 5 1/2 weeks old. He learns new stuff instantly....especially if it's something that he likes, such as where the new treats are hidden. But, he'll even pick up very quickly on something that I want him to learn, even if there isn't much payoff for him. If I so much as THINK about going to the local Tim Horton's coffee/doughnut shop, he starts dancing around and yelping excitedly. Sometimes I was planning to go and we do and he loves his plain timbits(!). Sometimes I was just thinking that I'd like to go; but, I can't today. Still, he seems to know what I had on my mind!
B
biothanasis
Guest
Great dog!!!!!
Yoyo_Jo
Catt's Meow
He looks a lot like my friend's border collie. Does Charlie like to herd things?
I could see the border collie definitely, but wasn't sure if gsd/rough collie. His head is shaped a bit like a rough collie (lassie) or gsd. yes, border collies are smarter than most humans, and i'm sure rough collies aren't too far behind 
K
koshki
Guest
What a gorgeous dog!
N
nikv
Guest
His ears are all German Shephard. My first thought was that he's part collie, part German Shephard. Very nice looking dog! By the way, I have a Shadow, too. But she's a cat. A princess cat, at that.
John M
Orchid Addict
Thanks again, everyone! Sometimes, I see him at just the perfect angle and he reminds me of the Lassie type collie. Then at other times, I see border collie in him. His ears stand up nice and firmly; but, border collies have softer ears that often easily flop over at the tips. However, yes, he likes to herd things!!!!! Mostly that's me! Whenever I walk him, he wants to be right behind me...pushing and guiding me. He NEVER goes out in front and pulls on the leash, he's always lagging slightly behind me, off to my left side; or, he's right behind me "herding" me as we go. I confess, I've never really been strict with him and taught him how to walk with me properly. I'm thinking of taking up walking on a daily basis for health reasons and if I really get into that, I'll have to make more effort to teach him that herding me ALL THE TIME is not allowed. For short distances, the herding behaviour is cute...and just not an issue for me; but, I'm sure I'll get pretty fed up with it if we start going on longer walks.
EDIT: I've just been googling border collies, rough collies and german sherherds. Now, I see more of the shepherd. Even the rough collies have soft ears that tend to flop over at the tips. Actually, if I had to guess right now, I'd say that he's half border collie and 1/4 rough collie and 1/4 german shepherd. Apparently, there's a DNA test that can tell you the genetic make-up of your dog. I might try that one day. It'd be very interesting to know. However, whatever he's got in his background, he's perfect in my mind! He's very dedicated and loyal to me and a great companion and he never lets me down.
Rick
Well-Known Member
I think he's very handsome.
My ex and I used to breed/show/train collies (and some border collies) when I lived in Oklahoma
Looks like a tri-color rough collie to me (if he's at least 40-50lb). STD collies come in 3 colors, sable, blue (merl), and tri-color. Two coat lengths, smooth and rough. Your basic Lassy was a pretty high quality rough sable (and usually male).
Shelties come in the same colors as std collies
Borders are smaller, lower to the ground and generally only black/white, or brown/white (tri-colors or merls are rare in border collies). But I have seen a few tall, long legged borders. A big male border is generally under 40lb.
The standing up ears is not uncommon in standard rough collies, but it is a showing fault.
I have a dog that is a dead ringer for a classic boarder black and white collie, but I know the parents are chihuhua and blue merl australian shepard!!!!!
I wouldnt be surprised if someone tried a cross of a tri-color rough collie with a border collie or australian shephard. It was certainly contemplated a lot by the sheep herding, and performance training crowd, who wanted bigger dogs, but with more energy, brains, and herding skill.
The tri-color pattern was definitely my favorite, even if they didn't have the coat quality of the sables. And dogs are for having fun. Charlie sounds like a winner!!
My ex and I used to breed/show/train collies (and some border collies) when I lived in Oklahoma
Looks like a tri-color rough collie to me (if he's at least 40-50lb). STD collies come in 3 colors, sable, blue (merl), and tri-color. Two coat lengths, smooth and rough. Your basic Lassy was a pretty high quality rough sable (and usually male).
Shelties come in the same colors as std collies
Borders are smaller, lower to the ground and generally only black/white, or brown/white (tri-colors or merls are rare in border collies). But I have seen a few tall, long legged borders. A big male border is generally under 40lb.
The standing up ears is not uncommon in standard rough collies, but it is a showing fault.
I have a dog that is a dead ringer for a classic boarder black and white collie, but I know the parents are chihuhua and blue merl australian shepard!!!!!
I wouldnt be surprised if someone tried a cross of a tri-color rough collie with a border collie or australian shephard. It was certainly contemplated a lot by the sheep herding, and performance training crowd, who wanted bigger dogs, but with more energy, brains, and herding skill.
The tri-color pattern was definitely my favorite, even if they didn't have the coat quality of the sables. And dogs are for having fun. Charlie sounds like a winner!!
Rick
Well-Known Member
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...a=X&ei=T8kQT77ECcy02AXRvqSECg&ved=0CBUQ9QEwAQ
Huge link, but a pic of a tri-color almost a ringer for Charlie
Huge link, but a pic of a tri-color almost a ringer for Charlie
SlipperFan
Addicted
Cute -- Charlie has a twin!
your observations about charlie herding you 'forwards' probably makes sense that he may be mostly rough collie - I was told that border collies herd at the 'head' (at your front) and other dogs that herd 'drive' (at the rear).
when I was helping for a short time with border collie rescue, I helped transport a blue merle rough collie who would greet you by standing on it's hind legs and putting it's paws on your shoulders and say 'hello'
when I was helping for a short time with border collie rescue, I helped transport a blue merle rough collie who would greet you by standing on it's hind legs and putting it's paws on your shoulders and say 'hello'
Rick
Well-Known Member
No they herd from behind.... Unless you herd in a team when you can have a dog lead as well as push.
Typical is to send the dog to "gather" by sending the dog away from the Shepard, circle round behind the flock and push the flock (from behind) back to the Shepard.
May be some terminology confusion with driving vs gathering or retrieving. Some of the bigger herding breeds are better at pushing a herd of stock away from the stockman driving them forward with stockman following behind. But borders are best at corralling and retrieving stock back to the stockman. Also individual borders can have different preferences and talents. A good stockman will have good fetching borders as well as drivers.
The real beauty of the border is the intense "eye" or focus of the dog. It's amazing to see a good border collie get into that stalking pose and stare down a sheep or cow until if turns around and moves in the right direction.
John M
Orchid Addict
..
John M
Orchid Addict
Thanks for the link, Rick. I'll read that tomorrow. Yeah! That tri-colour collie in the photo looks like Charlie in need of a clipping!
Charlie's herding skills are more "bumbling" than anything else. I get the impression that he knows he "must" do the herding thing; but, he has no idea why or what the intended result should be. He often crashes right into me!
Something else that he loves to do is fetch his toys. The walk to the greenhouse is about 200' and Charlie comes with me often. When he does, he always chooses a plush toy and brings it to me and drops it right in front of me, while I'm walking. He then walks backwards in front of me, ready to leap into action. I give it a good kick and send it up over his head. He races after it and usually catches it in his mouth. Then, he runs back in my direction and meets me (as I continue forward), and drops it in front of me again to repeat the process. So, while I walk in a straight line to the greenhouse, covering about 200', Charlie runs about 5 or 10 times that distance as he repeatedly runs forward to catch the toy and then back to drop it in front of me so that I can kick it for him again.
He also LOVES to play tug of war with his rope. I have a steel cable attached to the house and stretched across the yard (~150'), to the barn. It's about 10' to 12' above the ground. There's a pully on the cable with a 40' rope attached to it. So, when Charlie's outside by himself, he's always tied up, never loose; but, he's still got 150' x 80' to run around on, which he does a lot. He often makes up his own games and entertaines himself. He's allowed to choose what he wants, to be inside or outside. I'm the door slave.....um, I mean door man! Although, I never leave him outside when I leave the property and don't take him with me. However, I often do take him, because he LOVES car rides and I enjoy his company....and it's fun that everywhere I go (Home Depot, Rona, garden centres, coffee shop drive throughs, my mother's apartment building, etc.), he is constantly attracting attention and receiving compliments and praise from strangers! It's funny when I'm shopping and people stop and have a big conversation with him.....and tell him how handsome he is and what a good boy he is......and then go back to their business without ever even acknowledging me standing there holding the leash! Apparently, I'm obviously just the chauffeur!
When he's on his rope in the yard, he LOVES to take the rope in his mouth and present it to me to take hold of. When I do, we play "tug of war" until I tire out. He never gets tired! Sometimes when he's by himself outside on his rope, he takes the rope in his mouth and plays tug of war by himself. His opponent is the tension that the heavy steel cable provides in the slight sag as it stretches across the yard. He'll play like this for a long time, all by himself, until he's completely satisfied that the score is Charlie - 1, steel cable - 0.
He never has that "intense eye" focus that you mentioned and he never "stalks" anything.
Do these personality traits ring any bells?
Do they give any more clues as to what's in his lineage?
Charlie's herding skills are more "bumbling" than anything else. I get the impression that he knows he "must" do the herding thing; but, he has no idea why or what the intended result should be. He often crashes right into me!
Something else that he loves to do is fetch his toys. The walk to the greenhouse is about 200' and Charlie comes with me often. When he does, he always chooses a plush toy and brings it to me and drops it right in front of me, while I'm walking. He then walks backwards in front of me, ready to leap into action. I give it a good kick and send it up over his head. He races after it and usually catches it in his mouth. Then, he runs back in my direction and meets me (as I continue forward), and drops it in front of me again to repeat the process. So, while I walk in a straight line to the greenhouse, covering about 200', Charlie runs about 5 or 10 times that distance as he repeatedly runs forward to catch the toy and then back to drop it in front of me so that I can kick it for him again.
He also LOVES to play tug of war with his rope. I have a steel cable attached to the house and stretched across the yard (~150'), to the barn. It's about 10' to 12' above the ground. There's a pully on the cable with a 40' rope attached to it. So, when Charlie's outside by himself, he's always tied up, never loose; but, he's still got 150' x 80' to run around on, which he does a lot. He often makes up his own games and entertaines himself. He's allowed to choose what he wants, to be inside or outside. I'm the door slave.....um, I mean door man! Although, I never leave him outside when I leave the property and don't take him with me. However, I often do take him, because he LOVES car rides and I enjoy his company....and it's fun that everywhere I go (Home Depot, Rona, garden centres, coffee shop drive throughs, my mother's apartment building, etc.), he is constantly attracting attention and receiving compliments and praise from strangers! It's funny when I'm shopping and people stop and have a big conversation with him.....and tell him how handsome he is and what a good boy he is......and then go back to their business without ever even acknowledging me standing there holding the leash! Apparently, I'm obviously just the chauffeur!
When he's on his rope in the yard, he LOVES to take the rope in his mouth and present it to me to take hold of. When I do, we play "tug of war" until I tire out. He never gets tired! Sometimes when he's by himself outside on his rope, he takes the rope in his mouth and plays tug of war by himself. His opponent is the tension that the heavy steel cable provides in the slight sag as it stretches across the yard. He'll play like this for a long time, all by himself, until he's completely satisfied that the score is Charlie - 1, steel cable - 0.
He never has that "intense eye" focus that you mentioned and he never "stalks" anything.
Do these personality traits ring any bells?
Do they give any more clues as to what's in his lineage?
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Rick
Well-Known Member
Given his 60+ lb size he could be a straight collie (rough tri-color), but without papers or DNA analysis impossible to be sure.
Figuring dog parentage by looks is worse than figuring complex slipper parentage!! (as noted by the parentage of my "border collie").
In general it is a very common practice of pure bred breeders to dump their puppies that don't meet "show quality" characteristics as unregistered culls
No papers allowed. Apparently that link I posted is from a collie rescue site, and you'd notice that the ears stand up on just about all those dogs. My ex would go into hysterics to break over the ears on our dogs. All kinds of strategy of folding and taping. It's as bad as staking orchid spikesoke:
Fortunately our main focus was to redevelop a herding collie. Regular collies are very "loose eyed" dogs compared to border collies. As you describe its virtual "bumbling" in comparison to even an average border collie. Also roughs were worse than smooths since the bulk of rough breeders were only interested in appearance and virtually bred the brains out of the breed.
So we switched to smooth coated dogs that were not as popular. We ended up getting into border collies so that we could learn how to train dogs to herd. Hoping that something with more natural instinct would make it easier to figure out. Then we ended up with a flock of Indian runner ducks (big disaster) and a flock of Barbados sheep to train the dogs on.
After close to 15 years and a separation my ex did finally get one of our smooth collies to place at a herding trial. The border collie folk were so freaked out that she got that sloppy eyed collie to be competitive, that they gave her some high powered/pedigreed herding borders (direct Scottish lineage:wink to train. Since then she's out of the regular collie breeding and just works with borders and chihuahuas:sob:
The competitive dog world is way more crazy than the orchid world from my viewpoint.oke:
Figuring dog parentage by looks is worse than figuring complex slipper parentage!! (as noted by the parentage of my "border collie").
In general it is a very common practice of pure bred breeders to dump their puppies that don't meet "show quality" characteristics as unregistered culls
No papers allowed. Apparently that link I posted is from a collie rescue site, and you'd notice that the ears stand up on just about all those dogs. My ex would go into hysterics to break over the ears on our dogs. All kinds of strategy of folding and taping. It's as bad as staking orchid spikes
oke:Fortunately our main focus was to redevelop a herding collie. Regular collies are very "loose eyed" dogs compared to border collies. As you describe its virtual "bumbling" in comparison to even an average border collie. Also roughs were worse than smooths since the bulk of rough breeders were only interested in appearance and virtually bred the brains out of the breed.
So we switched to smooth coated dogs that were not as popular. We ended up getting into border collies so that we could learn how to train dogs to herd. Hoping that something with more natural instinct would make it easier to figure out. Then we ended up with a flock of Indian runner ducks (big disaster) and a flock of Barbados sheep to train the dogs on.
After close to 15 years and a separation my ex did finally get one of our smooth collies to place at a herding trial. The border collie folk were so freaked out that she got that sloppy eyed collie to be competitive, that they gave her some high powered/pedigreed herding borders (direct Scottish lineage:wink
to train. Since then she's out of the regular collie breeding and just works with borders and chihuahuas:sob:The competitive dog world is way more crazy than the orchid world from my viewpoint.
oke:
