Neo problems

[Lanmark]

As Dot said, different climates require different approaches.

...I grow mine outside all the time, so I have no experience with inside growing.

...Also, during the hottest months I water in early evening with no problems. I use the local water, chlorinated. In fact one of the local growers says he never uses insecticide on his plants "because the chemicals in the city water keep the bugs away mostly". As for fertilizer, I use it, when I remember, at about 1/4 strength once a week when the plants are in growth.

...I would take the plant off the mount, clean it of all dead tissue, soak it in a bath of your favorite fungicide (Physan might be interesting) for a while, and repot in a clay pot (or plastic fuukiran pot) in the traditional, hollowed out mound of high quality sphagnum moss. Keep it evenly moist with slight drying between dousing and WARM, not below 75 F until autumn. Apply fungicide every few weeks. In fall dry it off a bit more, but keep humidity high.

These plants do not like dry climates or houses with forced air conditioning. In their native homes they rarely see humidity drop below 50% and it averages closer to 70% year round...

Growing your plants outdoors helps tremendously in avoiding rotting problems which can occur when watering a Neo at night indoors. The dynamic nature of the atmosphere and airflow found outdoors is completely different from an in-house setting.

Growing outdoors also helps to eliminate problems from chemicalized tap water since your plants receive plenty of fresh rain throughout the year in addition to any water you may add.

I'd have to counter your advice about keeping the hollow mound of moss evenly moist with only slight drying out between dousings. This works well in a greenhouse or outdoors, but inside a home without fans and some source of very bright artificial lighting all day long, I feel it's a recipe for disaster. I'd allow the moss to become just shy of crisp before watering it again.

These plants definitely prefer the atmosphere you describe, Tom. I grow mine quite successfully, however, in an air conditioned indoor environment in an east-facing window supplemental with bright white LED lighting. I shield my plants from excessively hot late morning sun rays during the hottest months of the year. I lightly mist my plants regularly to maintain high humidity inside the large open-topped glass enclosure, and I allow them to dry between actual waterings. I open the window on days when air conditioning isn't required, and in winter I close off the room from the rest of the house, close the heat vent, and keep the unshielded window open a crack as needed to provide cooler temperatures during this dryer yet bright period of rest. My plants grow and bloom with great vigor. :clap:

Lanmark...Great Lakes water, is to my understanding, just about the best around. Ok, this might mark me forever as an "orchid-grower wannabe", but I simply can't get into using anything but tap water. Watering my collection from a wheelchair is challenge enough. If I had a greenhouse and a hose year round, yes, definitely I'd consider a different system, but right now, if they can't take my city water, they just can't live with me. But I might be able to find a way to allow the chloramine to dissipate before watering.

I have been trying to figure out a way to add an accessible RO system in my house, and I'm not sure I can do it. Still trying, but it is not looking too likely at this point.

Dot, you're right, I had not considered the difference in climate. So now, I have to change my daily routine! But I think that's doable.

I think once this plant is finished blooming or blasting, I will take it outdoors for a summer vacation. If I can find room...darn, I wish I had a greenhouse!

...

I feel like I'm arguing with you guys about all your advice, which is not my intent. I really do appeciate your suggestions! But I have parameters that limit what I can do, so I well, clarify, lol! ....

I don't feel like you're arguing, not even a little. This is how we learn. We discuss. We exchange ideas. We clarify. We share our experiences and our knowledge. Some of us have success with some types of plants and not with others. We all have differing available environments in which to grow our plants, and clearly there are many different methods and practices with which there are associated both successes and failures. I throw out a lot of ideas, some of which I hope are helpful to you. Take and use what you can and ignore the rest. Do what works for you. I don't believe in absolutes. :wink:

The quality of your water may not be a problem. I suspect it could be a contributing factor, but honestly I don't know for certain. Great Lakes water in its natural state (or boiled and cooled before use) is probably quite good for plants. Added salts, fluoride, chlorine and chloramine might cause problems in the long term. Chloramine doesn't dissipate like chlorine does. It's very hard to get rid of. I know it is highly toxic to aquarium fish, but I honestly don't know what effect, if any, it has on Neo plants. I use a countertop model of a reverse osmosis system. I purify my water a few gallons at a time. I prefilter with a sediment filter. Then the water passes through a KDF media filter, then through a granulated activated carbon filter before going through the RO membrane. Finally it passes through a final coconut-derived gac filter and into my jugs.

I think if I were you I'd first modify my watering routine, increase the frequency of low-dose fertilization, shelter the plant a little bit from the summer sun's hottest late morning rays and increase the light it receives in the afternoon. It may well benefit from spending the summer outdoors, but remember that it will need more water out there than it will take inside your house. You'll want to make sure you don't burn your plant as it acclimates to brighter conditions, and you'll need to check it over thoroughly for insect pests once you bring it back inside for winter.

Another thing you could do is try growing another type of Neo. I am assuming you have an unspecified basic species type of plant. Maybe it has poor vigor. Getting an Amami Island variety could make a big difference in vigor and warmth tolerance during the winter months.

 

[SlipperFan]

I agree with Mark. Katherine, I don't see your comments as being argumentative. One of the great things about this forum is that we can question, dig deeper, and disagree without losing respect. Only a few have crossed "the line" and it's pretty obvious when that happens.

I don't like sphagnum as a general potting medium. Lots of people have great luck with it, but for me it is a difficult medium to work with. I do like it for mounting most things, and it's something I revert to when I need to grow roots on a rootless plant. But I try to take the plant out of sphagnum as quickly as I can. The traditional way for potting Neos is as Tom and Mark say. But I think my Neos would deteriorate quickly if I were to attempt being traditional.

As for water, is there anyone in MOS that has had problems with your water? There are many really good growers in the Detroit area, and it would be interesting to know what water they use.

 

[koshki]

Thanks, guys...I guess too much therapy can make a person sensitive to the "Yes, but.." answer, lol!

As for water, is there anyone in MOS that has had problems with your water? There are many really good growers in the Detroit area, and it would be interesting to know what water they use.

No, Dot, I have not heard of anyone having any particular problems with our water here, although I can't remember discussing it with anyone. I will see if I can float an email question and find out. And although I'm willing to change my schedule of watering, I honestly don't think it's a problem due to watering in the evening. It just doesn't look like crown rot to me.

My guess is that it is probably my fault because I'm so delinquent about fertilizing. I'm almost afraid to report that the one spike is progressing nicely, and looks like it will bloom. :clap: (Shhhhh, I'm afraid I've jinxed it!)

Oh, and anyone have advice about how to fertilize the mount? Dunk, soak, splash, other? And what concentration for the Epsom salts?

 

[SlipperFan]

It doesn't have to be crown rot to be rot. From my experience, Neos, Tolumnias, Phrags and Paphs like to rot at the soil line and progress from there. I'd really be cautions about watering in the evening, expecially plants that like to dry out between waterings.

Personally, I think less fertilizer is better than too much. (Did I really just say that???)

I don't know the "proper" concentration of Epsom Salts, but I use 1 t. per gallon once a month. I read somewhere that you shouldn't mix it with fertilizer because there is a contraindication with one of the essential fertilizer ingredients -- I forget which one -- which renders it's use void.

 

[Rick]

I don't know the "proper" concentration of Epsom Salts, but I use 1 t. per gallon once a month. I read somewhere that you shouldn't mix it with fertilizer because there is a contraindication with one of the essential fertilizer ingredients -- I forget which one -- which renders it's use void.

I've add Epsom to my MSU fert to almost every batch I've made for the last year, and things are getting better all the time.

All the major elements are interconnected physiologically in the plant but Ca, K, and Mg all end up potentially counteracting each other. But K is the most readily sucked up nutrient and generally in highest supply in MSU fert. Once it builds up in a plant, it blocks both Ca and Mg, which in turn reduce the plants ability to move PO4 into the cells. This is actually not a problem specific to orchids, but all plants.

I forwarded a paper on to Heather to see if there is a way to post it (its a 20kb pdf document, on the role of K, Ca, and Mg on preventing or promoting Erwinia rots and other disease in crop plants. I also have another paper on the direct antagonistic effects of K on uptake of Ca and Mg (in rice plants). Once tissue K gets to be higher than Ca, plants are much more susceptible to disease. Sure you can grow them like crazy (for a while) but they have to be babied to keep rots from taking hold. Kind of like feeding cows corn instead of grass, they grow fast, have tasty fatty meat, but their internal environment is so off, that they need to be on antibiotics to keep from getting sick before slaughter. But cows are only fed corn short term in feed lots specifically for short term gain and maximum profit. No one keeps a cow on corn year after year, because it wouldn't survive without major veterinary intervention.

Most fertilizers are made for single growing season, ground to harvest crops. As long as the temps are up and sun is good, you get plants to harvest in record time. But if you check out the nutrition management of perennial crops like fruits or coffee, fertilizing is much reduced (per biomass of plant)and much more seasonally targeted for application.

I've also noticed that some of the more successful long term orchid growers literally do NO fertilization during the winter months. At this time if they are watering with local mains water with normal levels of Ca and Mg in it, then they are helping get the excess summer K out of the plants and potting mix. Adding oyster shell, lime, limestone, bonemeal to the potting mix will also provide at least a Calcium source to help move out excess K.

Any way there are a lot of ways to skin the cat as they say, and in many cases growers are already doing these things and don't even know it.

 

[SlipperFan]

I'll be interested to read the pdf -- anything that can help me understand will be helpful!

Thanks, Rick.

 

[cnycharles]

winter fertilizing might be okay in cool areas if they were using calcium nitrate fertilizer. I have a variegated neo that is in a small clay pot that has sphagnum in it, and when I remember to water in summer it seems to like it quite a bit; also seems to like it in winter. I have a purple neo that is from troy meyers that seems happy under lights mounted on cork with a little sphagnum around the roots and near the end of the fluorescent light fixture, and it seems pretty happy even though it dries out quite a bit. I would also echo that watering before nightfall is a bad idea indoors unless you have tons of wind to dry things off. how this can hurt if you don't have warm breezy environment is that a plant that likes it a bit warm, will have water that will cool and evaporate the base of the plant and it will stay like that all night. my phals that like warm resented having s/h culture in winter when it was quite cool in my apartment and growing area because the night evaporation cooled them a bit too much. if you could get a mounted plant to have very long roots, you could water the root ends heavily before night and not worry about basal disease from excessive cooling, i'll bet something like this happens in nature when a tree-bound plant gets a bunch of rain or moisture and the root ends are in tree bark or branch crevices that stay wet when the base of the plant is drying off

 

[koshki]

Thanks everyone for your input. I just looked at the neo in question, and some blooms opened today! I'll try to get a couple photos to share.

Dot, what do you pot your neos in? Or are they mounted?

Rick, I'll admit I had to read your post a couple times to make sure I was following...thank you for that! What is your recommendation for the amount of Epsom salts per gallon?

Mark and everyone else..I've switched my watering routine to earlier in the day. Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration...I skipped an evening or two, lol! It will take some time to get my new routine ingrained.

Still waiting on advice on the best way to fertilize mounted 'chids! (Sorry to keep pestering about this, but I keep thinking about how the fertilized water will hang around in a pot, but runs right off the mounted orchids, and well, my brain can sometimes get stuck on such questions....!)

 

[cnycharles]

how many mounted plants do you have? if it's just a few that you are worried that don't get enough fertilizer, you could just get a plastic container a little bigger than the mount, or large enough so that most of the roots but not much of the plant is under water. just use that container for that plant (neo). other answer is to spray the heck out of the plants that are mounted, maybe do it twice so that you are sure that all is wet, a little while apart. If you are very sure that your plants have no bugs or disease, you could dunk them. I know that many advocate not doing this for very good reasons, but we had an excellent grower in our society who had many restrepias, and other types plus dendrobium that liked to be mounted and high light and he had many in a lighted enclosure and dunked most of them for about ten minutes or so and had excellent results. (some restrepias were mounted, others in tiny pots)... mind you, he watched everything carefully and if it had some bugs or disease he kept it away from the other plants until it was clean; same thing with new plants. he also had excellent humidity and air movement so his incidence of disease was usually for plants that came into his posession with potting media that he hadn't changed yet, that wasn't ideal for his conditions. if you aren't attentive or don't like to keep track of bugs or disease then dunking probably isn't a good option because it'll spread them. but, mounted plants usually under lights often like being dunked

 

[SlipperFan]

Dot, what do you pot your neos in? Or are they mounted?

They are all in clay pots. Some are in straight diatomite and some are in coconut fiber -- the stringy stuff. They seem to be doing OK in either one.

Still waiting on advice on the best way to fertilize mounted 'chids! (Sorry to keep pestering about this, but I keep thinking about how the fertilized water will hang around in a pot, but runs right off the mounted orchids, and well, my brain can sometimes get stuck on such questions....!)

I'm probably not growing anything optimally, but I pretty much fertilize the mounted plants when I fertilize everything else. It will be interesting to read if other people have different schedules.

 

[Rick]

What is your recommendation for the amount of Epsom salts per gallon?


Still waiting on advice on the best way to fertilize mounted 'chids!

Unfortunately my answer on Epsom salt use is not simple. The highest rate I've used is about a tsp/gal, but only during a warm sunny summer day. The most I've used during the winter is 1/4 tsp/gal. These bigger doses are pretty spread out.

About a third of my collection is mounted or in baskets. I water every day. My regular irrigation water is a 10:1 mix of RO water and my hard well water. The final hardness is about 20ppm (as CaCO3) which is very soft. On just about any sunny day I add about 1/16 to 1/8tsp/gal of Epsom salts. I fertilize weekly at 1/4 - 1/2 tsp of MSU dry, pure water mix. However instead of using it in RO water, I'm now using it in my 10:1 soft water and adding about 1/16 to 1/8tsp/gal more Epsom salts.

It all goes in the pump sprayer, and just spray them down. Leaves, roots, the works. Often on fertilizer day, I spray down a mounted plant go water something else, and then hit the mounted plant again. As you've noted the water just runs off the mounted plants so not much is retained per shot.

 

[Lanmark]

I'd recommend soaking your mounted Neo plant for about 10 - 15 minutes. It won't hurt to completely immerse both roots and leaves in the fertilizer solution (or water if I you're just watering it). I recommend discarding the leftover solution afterward. Use fresh solution each time. I'd recommend only very light mistings after that for a couple of days. Then soak it again. As cnycharles noted, however, you must be absolutely certain that all plants sharing the solution for dunking have zero diseases and zero pests lest you spread trouble from one plant to all of your plants. You may increase or decrease the frequency of your soaks depending on how the plant responds.

Another way to ensure your mounted plant gets enough fertilizer is to thoroughly drench it by pouring the fertilizer solution over it and allowing the excess to drain away. Follow up about an hour later with a misting of the fertilizer solution. As I mentioned before, I prefer to use a dilute solution of fertilizer and apply it more frequently rather than use a stronger solution less often. I don't fertilize in winter.

As for the epsom salts, some people (myself included) use 1/4 tsp per gallon. Some people use 1 teaspoon per gallon.

I hope your plant comes back to good health for you soon! Why not start watering it mid-morning?

I can tell you from my own personal experience, it takes a lot longer to kill a Neo from too little moisture than it does to kill it from too much moisture.

 

[Lanmark]

I think Rick has good advice about the water, fertilizer and epsom salts which he uses.

 

[koshki]

Thanks for the great advice everyone!

While driving today I was thinking about my puzzlement concerning fertilizing mounted orchids and then it hit me...spray bottle! Duh!

Which (of course) leads me to another question...can the mixed up fertilizer "go bad" over time? I was thinking I could keep a spray bottle ready to go for weekly fertilizing. For me, simpler (read: easy) is more likely to lead to consistent.

 

[SlipperFan]

Should not be a problem!

 

[goldenrose]

Oh, and anyone have advice about how to fertilize the mount? Dunk, soak, splash, other?

Still waiting on advice on the best way to fertilize mounted 'chids! (Sorry to keep pestering about this, but I keep thinking about how the fertilized water will hang around in a pot, but runs right off the mounted orchids, and well, my brain can sometimes get stuck on such questions....!)

I have 2 barrels of rainwater in my GH. One has fertilizer mixed in it, the other is just plain straight. All of my mounts get put in the barrel, daily in the summer, for about 15 minutes. I'll do a few days in a row of fert than a day of pure, have had no problems, infact seem to do better with the soaking, just spraying them just isn't enough.