Paph In-Charm Topaz x Payakka Kodkod

[TyroneGenade]

Hello,

So, a journey of a new cross begins.

Last year Duck Slipper gave me some pollen of his Paph. concolor ‘Yellow Bird’ x thaianum ‘Perfecto’ to put on my InCharm Topaz (Lisa x Davelle) :

The pod matured and the seed sown (B138 terrestrial orchid medium from ajorchids on Ebay) but germination wasn't all that fantastic. The protocorms were replated on O156 replate medium (from ajorchids) and they grew to the point where I could give Duck Slipper some flasks and deflask the seedlings.

One flask got contaminated early on and was deflasked in desperation:

Inspired by Ray's semi-hydroponics I opted to deflask into what I had on hand: Safe-T Sorb (which I used as substrate in my aquaria). This is calcined clay granules with some iron and other mineral content. The plants above were deflasked some months back and now that the weather is warming they are putting out new leaves and growing nicely. The smaller group of plants weren't much more than protocorms at the time. I would wet the Safe-T Sorb with K-lite solution and then stand it in a shallow dish so there is always water being wicked up like in semi-hydroponics. The cup is covered with some plastic with small vents to maintain humidity. This has worked very well. The large clump to the left is from the plants I deflasked this week. There was considerable protocorm multiplication with the medium I used. Hopefully these clumps are super-looking clones.

These were deflasked a 2 days ago:

The larger seedlings show a nice mottled pattern. One of the smaller seedlings shows some sign of variegation but time will tell. Some of the the plants weren't much more than protocorms and it will be interesting to see if they take or if I just got lucky last time. Seedlings got a spraying with 3% H2O2 after being potted which is why they look wet.

The earlier deflasked plants now get K-lite watered from above but these newer ones will get some dilute K-lite from the bottom up for a while with overhead misting with RO to dilute salts a bit. So far there is no sign of salt creep in the first deflasked batch.

I will need to find a source of crushed brick for up-potting. Back in SA my complex Paphs and thaianum grew great in crushed brick with daily watering. I would add some leaf litter in with the complex plants.

I hope fortune smiles on me and I can continue updating this thread with photos of growing plants and, eventually, the first flowers. This is something of an experiment with the Safe-T Sorb.

Happy weekend

​

 

[Markhamite]

Looking forward to updates.

 

[Ross]

Good idea! I iook forward to seeing the results.

 

[TyroneGenade]

Hello,

Here is an update:



Some of the smallest protocorms/seedlings haven't made it but some have, and the larger seedlings are looking good. The moss is growing a bit fast and could prove a problem. I need to remove it from the pots where it is still small.

A side photo:

I will water into the cups at the bottom and spray with K-lite weekly from top.

I need to start unscrewing the caps on the bottle-tops so the seedlings can harden-off properly before winter.

 

[Duck Slipper]

Somehow I missed this post...I have potted up 2 of the largest seedlings...Ill post some pics!

 

[TyroneGenade]

I still have some in Safe-T Sorb:

And some have been potted up:

I don't think the little ones still in SafeT-sorb will catch up. Some were totally overrun by the moss and some just died. The large seedlings have done well. and are holding up well in lava rock. I held off on up-potting the other large seedlings to see how the ones above did in the lava rock.

I have decided to stick with growing several up together. This is going to greatly complicate repotting when it finally needs to be done.

So far so good.

 

[Duck Slipper]

For size comparison that is a 2.5” pot and a 3” pot in the left pic and a 6” community pot on the right.

 

[Duck Slipper]

Well...the pictures were side by side till I posted!
The top pic is 2.5" on the left, 3" on the right and the bottom is a 6" compot.

 

[TyroneGenade]

Very impressive! I did send you the larger seedlings though. Did you provide supplemental heat?

My largest seedling is just over 2 inches wide.

The Safe-T sorb seems to have done the job but not as well as traditional bark. I was nervous about fertilization though. How did you fertilize yours?

 

[Duck Slipper]

I fertilize them with all the other orchids...over winter down around 40-80 ppm nitrogen. Here lately 100-180 ppm nitrogen. No supplemental heat. I have thought about adding a heat mat for flasklings/seedlings though. I have quite a few different community pots...I treat them like all the other plants.

 

[Duck Slipper]

Hey Tyrone,
Here is the pollen parent. Just snipped off old 5th flower.

 

[TyroneGenade]

A lovely flower on a neat little plant. I hope both traits carry over to its progeny.

 

[Roots]

Thanks for posting these pics. Can't wait to see the results.

I fertilize them with all the other orchids...over winter down around 40-80 ppm nitrogen. Here lately 100-180 ppm nitrogen. No supplemental heat. I have thought about adding a heat mat for flasklings/seedlings though. I have quite a few different community pots...I treat them like all the other plants.

If you have the time, can I ask a few questions? How are you measuring nitrogen ppm? Is it the same as the nitrate or nitrite ppm on my water report? I am trying to wrap my head around water chemistry. Do you have any source suggestions for the layman? I saw a reference to a "Roth" manual but could find anything more.

 

[Duck Slipper]

Thanks for posting these pics. Can't wait to see the results.

If you have the time, can I ask a few questions? How are you measuring nitrogen ppm? Is it the same as the nitrate or nitrite ppm on my water report? I am trying to wrap my head around water chemistry. Do you have any source suggestions for the layman? I saw a reference to a "Roth" manual but could find anything more.

Roots,
I believe the single best cultural change I have made for water chemistry was changing from city water to rain water. This old house I live in has a cistern. When I moved here 30 years ago the house had already been converted over to city water. I started growing orchids and didn’t change to rainwater till 3 years ago when I added a pump and water line to the cistern…Huge difference. I was fertilizing at a low ppm nitrogen to keep from getting leaf tip burn, actually blaming it on fertilizing and orchids are so fragile. Once on rainwater I started increasing ppm nitrogen with no ill effects and experimenting with Urea also. Differences in growth and leaf color have been impressive. There are some other culture changes I have made but the biggest effect has been the change of water.

 

[TyroneGenade]

Thanks for posting these pics. Can't wait to see the results.

If you have the time, can I ask a few questions? How are you measuring nitrogen ppm? Is it the same as the nitrate or nitrite ppm on my water report? I am trying to wrap my head around water chemistry. Do you have any source suggestions for the layman? I saw a reference to a "Roth" manual but could find anything more.

If I understand your question correctly, the nitrogen concentration is what you would have if you followed the instructions on the fertilizer bottle. For instance, take K-lite. If you dissolved 1 teaspoon of K-Lite into 1 gallon you would have 150 ppm nitrogen. If your water source has N already in it, then you need to add that to the 150 but the N is elemental N while your water report would give it as nitrate (I suppose). 1 ppm nitrate is 0.22 ppm N. As the various nutrients will interact to affect nutrient uptake your over-all water quality does matter. For instance, if you have hard water with a lot of Ca in it, that will affect the uptake of Mg and PO4. If you add more Mg and PO4 to make up for this that could decrease Fe and K uptake. Commercial fertilizers are balanced for plant use (for a wide range of plants but not every plant) and the softer the water the better they will behave like in the lab they were developed in. As the substrate also affects nutrient composition it also plays a role here. The more inert the medium the more lab-like the fertilizer will behave but this may not be what the orchids desire.

Nitrogen comes in various forms: urea, NH4+ and NO3- and each have their advantages. Urea will pass right through plant leaves and is immediately available to the plant. NH4+ is easier to take up and assimilate but makes for a very acidic fertilizer. NO3- is easier to apply as fertilize but it costs the plant to use it. I was using K-lite with good results but have switched over to Miracle Grow because it has urea and the best way to fertilize the Disa I have started to grow is to spritz them with some urea based fertilizer now and then (they don't tolerate substrate/root fertilization). The Miracle Grow has a lot more K than the K-lite and I may pay for that in the future. Nothing is perfect, everything is a trade-off. There are a lot of threads on this forum arguing for or against K-lite, Miracle grow, MSU etc... For example, see here: https://www.slippertalk.com/threads/k-lite-update.25945/ .

You will need to experiment to find out what is best for you.

 

[Roots]

Roots,
I believe the single best cultural change I have made for water chemistry was changing from city water to rain water. This old house I live in has a cistern. When I moved here 30 years ago the house had already been converted over to city water. I started growing orchids and didn’t change to rainwater till 3 years ago when I added a pump and water line to the cistern…Huge difference. I was fertilizing at a low ppm nitrogen to keep from getting leaf tip burn, actually blaming it on fertilizing and orchids are so fragile. Once on rainwater I started increasing ppm nitrogen with no ill effects and experimenting with Urea also. Differences in growth and leaf color have been impressive. There are some other culture changes I have made but the biggest effect has been the change of water.

How cool to have an actual cistern! This is good encouragement to have a look at my water and start experimenting with some changes. And starting to wrap my head around different nitrogen sources. Thank you for the time and info.

If I understand your question correctly, the nitrogen concentration is what you would have if you followed the instructions on the fertilizer bottle. For instance, take K-lite. If you dissolved 1 teaspoon of K-Lite into 1 gallon you would have 150 ppm nitrogen. If your water source has N already in it, then you need to add that to the 150 but the N is elemental N while your water report would give it as nitrate (I suppose). 1 ppm nitrate is 0.22 ppm N. As the various nutrients will interact to affect nutrient uptake your over-all water quality does matter. For instance, if you have hard water with a lot of Ca in it, that will affect the uptake of Mg and PO4. If you add more Mg and PO4 to make up for this that could decrease Fe and K uptake. Commercial fertilizers are balanced for plant use (for a wide range of plants but not every plant) and the softer the water the better they will behave like in the lab they were developed in. As the substrate also affects nutrient composition it also plays a role here. The more inert the medium the more lab-like the fertilizer will behave but this may not be what the orchids desire.

Nitrogen comes in various forms: urea, NH4+ and NO3- and each have their advantages. Urea will pass right through plant leaves and is immediately available to the plant. NH4+ is easier to take up and assimilate but makes for a very acidic fertilizer. NO3- is easier to apply as fertilize but it costs the plant to use it. I was using K-lite with good results but have switched over to Miracle Grow because it has urea and the best way to fertilize the Disa I have started to grow is to spritz them with some urea based fertilizer now and then (they don't tolerate substrate/root fertilization). The Miracle Grow has a lot more K than the K-lite and I may pay for that in the future. Nothing is perfect, everything is a trade-off. There are a lot of threads on this forum arguing for or against K-lite, Miracle grow, MSU etc... For example, see here: https://www.slippertalk.com/threads/k-lite-update.25945/ .

You will need to experiment to find out what is best for you.

Thank you for the chemistry lesson. I wish I had paid better attention when I was offered them in high school . It is helpful to know that I can use the N ppm stated on the fertilizer with 22% of the nitrates on my water report to figure total N ppm. Water chemistry is so complex with so many variables. I can see why there is so much discussion. Thank you too for your time and the info.