Paph rothschildianum 'JAR'
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Keep in mind that until last year I was following the K-lite starvation routine, they've only had one growth cycle feeding Xavier's style and in that time I've seen marked improvements across the board. The only plant still struggling is that little WBW and it was the most severely affected plant. I'm also growing in a warm greenhouse with sun and supplemental lighting so my plants need more feeding than the average windowsill or indoor light rack plant.
It is a potassium deficiency, as a very certain fact... and to know it just by looking at a photo, because that's my job, for gigantic large scale nurseries and pot plant labs...
The same as Miltoniopsis that have a orange rot at the base of the growths and the bulbs. It is not a disease, but a deficiency...
I know as well the symptoms when a multi bloom and the leaf tips start to die off, and the exact reasons. I paid more than enough mineral analysis to know a little bit about the subject.
For the feeding, Hawaii and Taiwan tend to use a very high nitrogen/urea content fertilizer so the plants do grow big quickly ( we do the same for pot plant Phalaenopsis in 12cm...). They do not correct the pH on top of that, so the plant grows, but at a low pH the potassium is not properly absorbed by multifloral and some barbata Paphiopedilum, then you have 2 reasons for the deficiency.
As for when a plant goes down, well, long story. But let's say that with some deficiencies, the plants will take years to recover, if they are able to. It induces some metabolic changes that are very hard to revert. Potassium in Paphiopedilum especially is not really mobile du to the plant structure. There is an equilibrium depending on the growth placement, the leaf age, and the roots ( where and on which growth), and once this equilibrium is broken, it can take ages, if ever, to get back the plant on track.
I always have a lot of fun about people talking about orchid nutrition. Most of them have absolutely no data to support their claims, other than 'well it works better with that fertilizer, so it is good, and here is the reason,different NPK'.... Nutrition science for orchids is much, much more complicated than just a direct test, less potassium and the plant grows, or this kind of things. There are massive interactions in terms of ion uptake, residual pH, combined ions needs, etc... that are known only in the industrial pot plant world, for sure.
Out of the 4 largest laboratories doing Phalaenopsis tissue culture ( market of 180 millions plants a year only in Europe), 3 for sure use an ammonium and urea based media, no nitrate. There is a reason for that... but you won't find any hobbyist-like or university basic level literature mentioning those media, and how they work.
There is a final point, as well. When a plant has a deficiency or toxicity, it is very difficult to get it to recover. In some cases it takes months. In many cases, years or more.... and in the orchid world, deficiencies are more common than toxicities by far.
tnyr5
Well-Known Member
While I agree with the above (I can't do the tests to be qualified to disagree lol), I'd like to say: Don't give up on those Hawaiian plants, I've had a couple of those roths that died back to almost nothing and rebloomed both in 18 months.
Happypaphy7
Paphlover
Xavier-
So, industry secrets that you can’t say in details.
I have more to ask regarding nutritions but typing on the phone is annoying, but I do agree that many people including growers have no idea what they’re talking about. Just my way high way sort of deal. And in most social setting, going against their popular claim comes at a high cost to say the least.
More later at home.
But quickly, what about the last paragraph of my last comment?
What would you say?
So, industry secrets that you can’t say in details.
I have more to ask regarding nutritions but typing on the phone is annoying, but I do agree that many people including growers have no idea what they’re talking about. Just my way high way sort of deal. And in most social setting, going against their popular claim comes at a high cost to say the least.
More later at home.
But quickly, what about the last paragraph of my last comment?
What would you say?
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SlipperKing
Madd Virologist
Tony and Happy,
I didn't really save any of the spotted leaves I cut from the roths, which in hindsight it would of been a good topic for the problem section here. I do have this leaf from a non- roth plant still coming from Hawaii.
Tony is this what you are seeing as well?
I didn't really save any of the spotted leaves I cut from the roths, which in hindsight it would of been a good topic for the problem section here. I do have this leaf from a non- roth plant still coming from Hawaii.
Tony is this what you are seeing as well?
isnt that 'anthracnose'?
I think your Roth is a keeper SK.
SlipperKing
Madd Virologist
Thanks Duck and good question Stephen. The plants come in pristine condition. Then a week or two later this spotting starts on the bottom leaf(s). I'll spray the infected areas with ZeroTol HC but it doesn't slow the spread making it necessary to cut.
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If one wanted to remedy the deficiency what would you suggest?
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I think you need to use a fungicide like the mango and avacardo growers
SlipperKing
Madd Virologist
Elaborate Stephen please
I have seen spotting like that, which I assume is a secondary infection taking advantage of the weakened plant. Rotating a couple of fungicides in my collection helped but did not completely eliminate the leaftip dieback. I'm tweaking my feeding after talking with Xavier to try to completely eliminate it.
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You mind sharing the changes in your feeding? Curious to know the best way to supplement Potassium and didn't see Xavier make suggestions here or in other threads.
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My feed is based on Xavier's published recipe, modified somewhat to work with the salts that I have readily available (ammonium nitrate in particular is difficult to source and I replaced it with ammonium sulfate and calcium nitrate). I was using potassium silicate as my potassium source but recently switched to potassium nitrate, doubling the amount published and added a top dress of dolomitic lime.
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Thanks! Yes, that's the 2012 paper. I wasn't sure if he since modified or was still using the same.
I have been using k-lite and haven't seen the problems listed here on my older plants, but the newer ones from OI are showing some of these symptoms. I'm currently trying something new for a few months to see how it works (Green Jungle, and yeah I know there are people who say it is just over priced green water but I've seen first hand some really impressive growth from local growers).
Thanks again, will be curious to know how your modifications work for you as I likely will have trouble getting the same ingredients.
copper based and or Mancozeb. Coat both surfaces of the leaf.
Wössner Black Wings one week out of the box from Hawaii, looked pristine on day one and has since shed two leaves with two more on the way out.
tnyr5
Well-Known Member
Yeah, same thing that happens to me with their plants. It's never fatal, and it doesn't come back, but I always cut the spikes.
big923cattleya
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Is that rock wool as the primary media? If so, that could be a little bit of a problem for strap leafed Paphs.
Do you know exactly how long it was in transit?
I regularly order Phrags. from a vendor on e-bay in rock wool. The seller uses it for his Phrags regardless of breeding. Once in a while a kovachii or larger growth Phrag. arrived and develops issues with a few older leaves. Rarely on new leaves.
The besseae, schlimii, type plants rarely have an issue from being moist in transit. They seem to need moisture and do not have problems.
I have ordered about 18 strap leaved Paphs. recently and not a single one came in rock wool or sphagnum for that matter. I am thinking that if Roth type things like to be watered, dry a bit, and watered again, maybe if it was sent wet or recently watered a that’s why a few older leaves are being shed?
But in every case the vendors I use ship on Mondays, arrive on Thursday, and there are very few issues.
Do you know exactly how long it was in transit?
I regularly order Phrags. from a vendor on e-bay in rock wool. The seller uses it for his Phrags regardless of breeding. Once in a while a kovachii or larger growth Phrag. arrived and develops issues with a few older leaves. Rarely on new leaves.
The besseae, schlimii, type plants rarely have an issue from being moist in transit. They seem to need moisture and do not have problems.
I have ordered about 18 strap leaved Paphs. recently and not a single one came in rock wool or sphagnum for that matter. I am thinking that if Roth type things like to be watered, dry a bit, and watered again, maybe if it was sent wet or recently watered a that’s why a few older leaves are being shed?
But in every case the vendors I use ship on Mondays, arrive on Thursday, and there are very few issues.
