Paphiopedilum leucochilum

[Mafate]

Hello all,

Here is my Paphiopedilum leucochilum (or at least that's the name it had when I bought it) blooming for the first time.

Can it be called leucochilum despite the dots present on its pouch?

 

[GuRu]

Sylvain, firts of all this flower is very pretty.
As to P. leucohilum .... I think I expressed my point of view here various times. All taxonomist mention in their descriptions that the pure white/cream unspotted labellum/pouch is the main trait to distinguish P. godefroyae var. leucochilum/P. leucochilum from P. godefroyae.
Dr. G. Braem writes in his book Paphiopedilum : .....var. leucochilum differs from all other forms of the species by a immaculate, unspotted labellum.....
O. Gruß writes in his new book Paphiopedilum Südostasiatische Frauenschuhe Band/volume 1 (Seite/page 183):
Beschreibung:
Die Farbform hat die gleiche Form und Färbung wie das Paph. godefroyae. Lediglich die Lippe zeigt keinerlei Flecken oder Zeichnungen. Oft sind die Blüten etwas größer als beim Paph. godefroyae.
Translation:
Description:
The colour form has the same shape and colouration as Paph. godefroyae. Merely the labellum shows no spots or markings at all. Often are the flowers sightly bigger as with P. godefroyae.
I know here are some members who use the name Paph. leucochilum or var. leucochilum very generously .... because the name was written on the tag or by other reasons.
So it depends to you what you will do ...... keep the name which has been written on the tag or follow the descriptions of taxonmists.
I for my part decided to do the latter ... because I won't count spots on the pouch to distinguish P. godefroyae var. leucochilum/P. leucochilum from Paph. godefroyae.

 

[DirGo]

So it depend to you what you will do ...... keep the name which has been written on the tag or follow the descriptions of taxonmists. I for my part decided to do the latter

I am 100% with Rudolf: There is no "partially unspotted" with any spotting present. There is no "partially albino" with any red pigment present. Very similar to being pregnant, there is no "partially pregnant", you either are or you are not. This for sure does not mean I think any less of these flowers, many times they are even more appealing and more unique. For sure I really love the godefroyae above a lot.
It is up to the owner to decide if they change the tag (or not) but I would strongly advice to share this important description when selling your plant or when using it for pollen/seed production to keep the form/variety pure in any potential offspring.

 

[Mafate]

Hello, thank you Rudolf and DirGo for your answers. I have to say that I am 100% with you too, and so that I will follow the descriptions of the taxonomists and change the label of my plant to godefroyae. ;-)

I just bought today another leucochilum from Popow, and as far as I can see on the pictures, its pouch it totally white. However, I only can see the front of the pouch, so I hope I won't have any bad surprises. ;-)

 

[Murray F]

Nice colour form probably goedfroyae

 

[Happypaphy7]

Those are some nice photos of the flower! love the details!
May I ask what camera you use for these close ups?

 

[Mafate]

Those are some nice photos of the flower! love the details!
May I ask what camera you use for these close ups?

Thanks. My camera is a Nikon D5600 and my lens is a Nikkor AF-S 105mm f/2.8. But the secret is to use the stacking method: the last picture in this thread is made of 800 photos stacked together to increase the depth of field.

 

[Guldal]

..... follow the descriptions of taxonmists.
I for my part decided to do the latter ... because I won't count spots on the pouch to distinguish P. godefroyae var. leucochilum/P. leucochilum from Paph. godefroyae.

If you follow your own advice (and the taxonomists you cite), Rudolf, it's a rather binary and quite simple process: one spot and it's definately not leucochilum (no matter whether you consider that a variety or a colourform)!
Taxonomists don't always agree, but in this matter both Braem and Gruß are in agreement with each other - and probably with most of the present botanical society.
Thus, if people insist on keeping the leucochilum designation for plants with flowers with a spotted labellum, they ought to indicate, that they are not using the proper botanical name for their plant, but a horticultural designation: P. godefroyae var. leucoshilum (Hort.) or P. leucochilum (Hort.).

 

[Mafate]

Hello all,

I received today from Popow the "leucochilum" I bought 2 days ago, very quick shipment!

Unfortunately, even if the pouch is less spotty, it is godefroyae one more time as you can see on the pictures below (there are spots at the base of the pouch). So I am now the proud owner of 3 godefroyae but no leucochilum. If anyone knows where I can buy a true one, please tell me!







And finally the plant from Popow (right) and the previous one side by side. Which one do you prefer, and why?

 

[tnyr5]

Kew currently accepts leucochilum as a species, and the hybrid Leucofroyae was recently registered. Whether or not we agree with the species designation, I'm going to stick my neck out here: 99% of all godefroyae/leucochilum in the hobby are the hybrid Leucofroyae. Maybe more. In fact I'd go so far as to say it might be impossible to get the pure species right now.

 

[Guldal]

..... the hybrid Leucofroyae was recently registered.

Well, if one's basic tenet is, that Godefroys and Leuchos are just colour forms of the same species, your brain gets really twisted by the concept of Leucofroyae.... Am I the only one coming to think of the hybrids formerly known as Sophrolaeliocattleya, that I suppose must now be rechristened to Cattlecatcattleya!

 

[Guldal]

Which one do you prefer, and why?

Both! Cross them and hope for offspring, that takes the best from each of the parents.

 

[eds]

Kew currently accepts leucochilum as a species, and the hybrid Leucofroyae was recently registered. Whether or not we agree with the species designation, I'm going to stick my neck out here: 99% of all godefroyae/leucochilum in the hobby are the hybrid Leucofroyae. Maybe more. In fact I'd go so far as to say it might be impossible to get the pure species right now.

I don't think it's that simple.

Since people seem to have started talking about the spotless pouched Paphs (see how I'm avoiding naming them!) even selfings seem to have produced offspring with spots on their pouches. As such I don't think they are necessarily crossed with spotty pouched plants, just that the spotless forma is not pure breeding and will throw out offspring with spotted pouches.

It would be interesting to go and find wild populations of these and see if they are all spotless pouched or not.

 

[GuRu]

Kew currently accepts leucochilum as a species, and the hybrid Leucofroyae was recently registered. Whether or not we agree with the species designation, I'm going to stick my neck out here: 99% of all godefroyae/leucochilum in the hobby are the hybrid Leucofroyae. Maybe more. In fact I'd go so far as to say it might be impossible to get the pure species right now.

You can also see it vice versa.
I've learned here that KEW Science isn't always the one and only or last instance. So if you don't follow KEW Science, as some taxonomists do *, they all are P. godefroyae, also the 'hybrid' is P. godefroyae.....so they all are pure species.
* I'm no taxonomist but I can't find any reason to lift var. leucochilum up to species status.

 

[GuRu]

I don't think it's that simple.

Since people seem to have started talking about the spotless pouched Paphs (see how I'm avoiding naming them!) even selfings seem to have produced offspring with spots on their pouches. As such I don't think they are necessarily crossed with spotty pouched plants, just that the spotless forma is not pure breeding and will throw out offspring with spotted pouches.

It would be interesting to go and find wild populations of these and see if they are all spotless pouched or not.

Genetics isn't simple at all, that's a fact.
One thought comes to my mind when I read your post. We talk about semi-alba flowers which have a coloured lip and no colour in their, therefore white, sepals/petals. Why can't we see it also vice-versa ... var. leucochilum is a semi-alba variety of godefroyae...with a pure white lip/pouch and colored/spotted petals an sepals.
And as far as I know, offsprings of selfed or crossed semi-alba flowers are not inevitable semi-alba ones.

 

[tnyr5]

What I meant was, every leucochilum you can get in the trade has godefroyae blood in it, and vice versa, because every breeding line has both subspecies criss-crossed ad nauseam, and there are no pure subspecies in the hobby, whether they exist and breed true in the wild or not.

 

[hope]

I think you can safely call them both P leucochilum, even with a few spots on the lip. According to Koopowitz (Orchid Digest vol4 2012), "Most of the plants currently grown under the concept have unspotted lips....I did observe a small number of plants in original importations of the species, which had speckling on the lips although most of the individuals bore concolor lips." He also states that godefroyae grows on the east coast of Thailand, while leucochilum is found on islands off the west coast, and they have a different flowering season. So it's not necessarily just the color of the lip making it one species or the other, and a few speckles don't make them impure.
Regardless of what you decide to call them, I think you have two very beautiful plants, and if I had ordered and recieved them, I would be very happy!!

And finally the plant from Popow (right) and the previous one side by side. Which one do you prefer, and why?
View attachment 41347

They are both beauties, but I think I prefer the one on the right, due mostly to the round shape of the petals. I think I also like the spotting pattern on that one more. I hope they bring you joy for many years to come!

 

[setaylien]

Hello all,

I received today from Popow the "leucochilum" I bought 2 days ago, very quick shipment!

Unfortunately, even if the pouch is less spotty, it is godefroyae one more time as you can see on the pictures below (there are spots at the base of the pouch). So I am now the proud owner of 3 godefroyae but no leucochilum. If anyone knows where I can buy a true one, please tell me!

View attachment 41344

View attachment 41345

View attachment 41346

And finally the plant from Popow (right) and the previous one side by side. Which one do you prefer, and why?
View attachment 41347
[/QUO
I prefrt the

Hello all,

I received today from Popow the "leucochilum" I bought 2 days ago, very quick shipment!

Unfortunately, even if the pouch is less spotty, it is godefroyae one more time as you can see on the pictures below (there are spots at the base of the pouch). So I am now the proud owner of 3 godefroyae but no leucochilum. If anyone knows where I can buy a true one, please tell me!

View attachment 41344

View attachment 41345

View attachment 41346

And finally the plant from Popow (right) and the previous one side by side. Which one do you prefer, and why?
View attachment 41347

I prefer the one from Popow because the shape is rounder and the pouch less spotted.

 

[GuRu]

I think you can safely call them both P leucochilum, even with a few spots on the lip. According to Koopowitz (Orchid Digest vol4 2012), "Most of the plants currently grown under the concept have unspotted lips....I did observe a small number of plants in original importations of the species, which had speckling on the lips although most of the individuals bore concolor lips." He also states that godefroyae grows on the east coast of Thailand, while leucochilum is found on islands off the west coast, and they have a different flowering season. So it's not necessarily just the color of the lip making it one species or the other, and a few speckles don't make them impure.....

Mmmmh, would you please tell me .... how many spots are allowed to name it still leucochilum and from which number of spots do I have to name it godefroyae?
Koopowitz also wrote in his book 'Tropical Slipper Orchids' (2008 / p.187) under the headline Paph. godefroyae Paph. x greyi and I cite:
'The clear-pouched forms o f this species were recognized very early as a distinct variety, Paphiopedilum godefroyae var. leucochilum, by Rolfe in 1894. They were elevated to species status as Paph. leucochilum by Jack Fowliein 1975, but Phillip Cribb (1998) ....... lumped all of these plants into Paph. godefroyae. For horticulture reasons, it is reasonable to maintain the clear-pouched plants as Paph. godefroyae var. leucochilum.....

 

[Mafate]

Both! Cross them and hope for offspring, that takes the best from each of the parents.

I would be happy to do this, but unfortunately I don't have the skills nor the equipment for it.