Paphiopedilum primulinum

[Bob Wellenstein]

I received an email regarding a posting somewhere on this forum of a Paph. primulinum with a white pouch, and apparently it was stated it had to be a hybrid, no true primulinum can have a white pouch. Sorry, that's pure BS. For any non American readers B stands for Bull and S stands for Scat, or a synonym thereof. It's something that collects ankle deep at orchid forums and waist deep at some judging centers. I have had the pleasure of seeing probably a hundred or more mature collected primulinums blooming together, and the color range is fantastic, including several with white pouches, and one almost completely white. While I admit that there are a hell of a lot of mutts that have been bred in the cochlopetalum group, but a white pouch is not impossible on primulinum, and I know for a fact that Peter's is a true species as both parents were collected.

 

[P-chan]

Thanks for that info! Something for me to remember.

 

[Ernie]

I have a prim from Bob that has a pouch that is darn close to white- http://www.enlightenedorchids.com/PaphGallery.htm and scroll down a little (it is actually lighter than the pic shows). And we have several prim clones from that one to nearly armeniacum gold.

-Ernie

 

[Bob Wellenstein]

I have been informed by email that it was the "other" slipper forum that this post came up on. I would not post there, sorry, even if I could. I believe I've been banned for years because I wouldn't sell a plant (that wasn't for sale) to the Grand Pubah, I'm not big on paying tribute as others have found out! If someone dares paste my response over there please do, it probably won't last. I would suggest that this be a reason why people should rethink posting over there, especially all the duplicate posting. If you look at the true traffic there, why bother posting, especially risking that many of the people who might most appreciate your post or be able to contribute either can't or won't, and the list is long. Also, since I have a dry sense of humor, please remember that I didn't read the original posting, so no one should take any slight at my BS comments. I would love to have a dialogue on the mutts out there masquerading as species, the cochlopetalums crossed largely by misidentification (a true chamberlainianum is becoming rare, moquettianum is becoming mucked up), or the glanduliferums and wilhelminiaes, most of which are hybrids of each other, now going on more than one generation, the purposeful crossing of curtisii and superbiens, and spicerianums to name a few. The nicest Toni Semple I have was bought from a sales table, it didn't have a tag but since there were a bunch of lowiis the vendor wrote a tag as lowii and stuck it in the plant right in front of me. And the specific problems and reasons for them are somewhat regional. I once watched vendors spent half a day pulling untagged complexes from a large Dutch cut flower nursery,and then make up "best guess" tags before sending off to be sold at the Tokyo Dome show. But time is precious, I commented here because Peter (Greenpaph) whom, I know to be sincere and honest, asked me to so he could clarify in his mind the situation with his plant.

 

[Roy]

Bob, for what you have written about the problems with the particular plants named, THANK YOU. Couldn't put it better myself even though I have tried.

 

[goldenrose]

I'm with Ernie - here's mine!
http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11018

 

[slippertalker]

Thanks for the input, Bob.

My experience with this species is different from yours, and the vast majority of the imported plants that I saw back in the early 80's were clear yellow and the primary differences were the amount of green in the dorsal sepal and staminode. The flowers were small and the plants quite compact. The variety purpurascens was noticeably larger but still smaller than something like Paph liemianum.

Over the last ten years or so, we have seen a proliferation of the white pouched "primulinums". Conjecture being what it is, this could be selective breeding or a tainted strain (hybrid). One thing for sure is that the flowers are larger, the plants are larger and the color is much whiter from the normal yellow.

Koopowitz in his recent book, addresses these issues and surmises that the plants that show these characteristics are probably Pinocchio or Avalon Mist.

From Braem & Chiron 2003: "Buyers should be aware of the fact that on several occasions, plants of the garden hybrid Paphiopedilum Pinocchio.... have been sold under the name of P. primulinum. One of these sales was a very large batch of seedling plants that were sold by a German nursery to a wholesale nursery in the USA. Furthermore, Paphiopedilum Avalon Mist, the back cross of P. primulinum onto P. Pinocchio, is almost impossible to differentiate from the true P. primulinum. Only the larger size and number of flowers per inflorescence make some plants suspicious." this from Stephen Manza's website.

There appears to be much confusion, mislabeling and perhaps selective breeding involved here.

 

[tim]

Bob,

So you'd like to have a discussion about mutts. Well I wrote that white prims are not the true species, so I'll begin.

I don't doubt you've seen more prims than me, but every one I have with Rands' labels in it is yellow (maybe 10 plants), with skinny leaves maybe 2-4 cm wide and maybe 20 cm long, with obvious venation. A bunch of the stuff I've since purchased as primulinum has much wider leaves, much longer leaves and a white pouch. Maybe it would be illustrative if some of the people here with white-pouched prims took some plant pix as well and posted them up here.

Where did you see all these collected plants together? Did you import them as a group? Is there not a possibility that the group of them represented some swarm of the Cochlopetalums living on Sumatra? Out here in CA, the general consensus of most growers is that white-pouched prims are mutts, and much of the plant morphology backs that up. Where do you think the impetus for calling these things species comes from? Are there that many people who want a primulinum over a pretty Avalon Mist?

In my opinion, alot of this problem stems from calling everything the same species at first. I've seen so many crosses of chamberlainianum x glaucophyllum or x liemieanum or x (even) victoria-mariae labelled as chamberlainianum, just because at first they were all considered subspecies and varieties of chamberlainianum. Are these mutts just mistakes? What about glaucophyllym album - do you think that's legit or just a backcrossed Pinnochio?

Interestingly enough, some of the best primulinum (or I should say yellow prim) breeding is coming from Matsui of all places - some really beautiful flat, yellow clones.

Now, having said that, sometimes pictures of yellow prims show up pretty white...and my best ones, while yellow, take a white picture. Maybe I just suck at photography...

Looking forward to some discussion...

-Tim

 

[NYEric]

I ignore opinions that I believe to be incorrect [generally]. However since I have no financial stake in species or hybrid distinction I have that luxury. I'm sure no insult was/is meant.