H
Hera
Guest
Generally spread slowly but inevitably through my collection. No other genera seem to be affected.
Phal problem
- Thread starter OrchidIsa
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Generally spread slowly but inevitably through my collection. No other genera seem to be affected.
Since it spread through the collection and affected only Phals that lessens the probability it is nutrient related and continues to suggest viral.
Stone
Well-Known Member
OrchidIsa!
A lot of opinions flying here! We would love to know whats causing it but I think you must provide detailed information about your growing conditions and techinique before we can zero in on the problem (if that is possible)
Temps, Humidity, Air movement?
Water temps, quantity and quality?
Fertilizer type?
Fertilizer strength?
Fertilizer frequency?
Are all the affected plants from the same source?
Have you noticed it developing on plants that were nice and healthy before?
If so, were they potted in sphag as well?
You mentioned no other genera were affected. What else are you growing?
BTW you definitly have/had a mite issue which would be the vector if it turns out to be virus. You can see small pitting on the leaves here and there.
In the end Phals are quite cheap and fast growing so it might pay to throw them all out and start again as somone suggested.
A lot of opinions flying here! We would love to know whats causing it but I think you must provide detailed information about your growing conditions and techinique before we can zero in on the problem (if that is possible)
Temps, Humidity, Air movement?
Water temps, quantity and quality?
Fertilizer type?
Fertilizer strength?
Fertilizer frequency?
Are all the affected plants from the same source?
Have you noticed it developing on plants that were nice and healthy before?
If so, were they potted in sphag as well?
You mentioned no other genera were affected. What else are you growing?
BTW you definitly have/had a mite issue which would be the vector if it turns out to be virus. You can see small pitting on the leaves here and there.
In the end Phals are quite cheap and fast growing so it might pay to throw them all out and start again as somone suggested.
All right. I agree.
This has to be a brand new virus or fungus that was never seen before a year or so ago and hasn't been seen since a few months ago. It only affects the Phals of a few people, except for Hera whose every genera has been effected. Most likely it only effects orchids of growers that post on orchid forums since there hasn't been even a whisper of it anywhere else.
Luckily, I guess everyone elses plants have some kind of genetic immunity to it.
This has to be a brand new virus or fungus that was never seen before a year or so ago and hasn't been seen since a few months ago. It only affects the Phals of a few people, except for Hera whose every genera has been effected. Most likely it only effects orchids of growers that post on orchid forums since there hasn't been even a whisper of it anywhere else.
Luckily, I guess everyone elses plants have some kind of genetic immunity to it.
If you want to have valid meaningful sarcasm then at least read the posts you base your sarcasm on.
You wrote: "except for Hera whose every genera has been effected"
But that is 100% incorrect because Hera wrote :
No one here is insisting it is a virus but to some it seems that other possible causes have been mostly eliminated.
It would be nice to have a peaceful and helpful discussion about the problem so let's try to be open minded and discuss and keep it factually accurate. If you have contacts you deal with in Taiwan send them the pictures and see what they say. I did and the first comment was that it looks like a virus but not one seen before. It would be great if the problem turned out to be a cultural issue but to many experienced growers have reported it. Some people refer to it as a microfungus and it could be but "microfungus" is a made up pathogen in this case.
Paphman910
Well-Known Member
A few of my Phals showed the same sympton as OrchidIsa.
It turns out my plants were imported from Taiwan but I was having trouble with them because the roots were not adapted to my condition in moss.
All the roots died and I got the same yellow streak and the plant looked virused.
Then I repotted in a mix of moss with perlite and roots started to grow.... again I had problems because my phals became bone dry in 2 days and it stunted the roots!
Now I repotted them back into moss and they are growing well with no problems!
It turns out my plants were imported from Taiwan but I was having trouble with them because the roots were not adapted to my condition in moss.
All the roots died and I got the same yellow streak and the plant looked virused.
Then I repotted in a mix of moss with perlite and roots started to grow.... again I had problems because my phals became bone dry in 2 days and it stunted the roots!
Now I repotted them back into moss and they are growing well with no problems!
In post #22 OrchidIsa said....
"There are plenty of healthy roots. The plants seem to continue growing normally."
You wrote: "except for Hera whose every genera has been effected"
But that is 100% incorrect because Hera wrote : You're right. Misread that.
No one here is insisting it is a virus but to some it seems that other possible causes have been mostly eliminated.
I probably misread your posts because I thought you were pretty convinced it was a new virus or fungus. On the other hand, I think everything but cultural causes have been eliminated.
If you have contacts you deal with in Taiwan send them the pictures and see what they say. [/QUOTE]
I would, but I have no idea how to send pictures. I'd post pics here if I knew how. I used to, but forgot. I'm an old dude. I can't even figure out how to use the quotes from previous posts like you can. I can type because I took a typing course in High school on a manual typewriter so I could type essays because my teachers couldn't read my handwriting and my parents thought everyone should know how to type.
Here's why I came up the bad medium idea - and I'm not saying that's the cause. In my original post it was just put forth as a wildass guess.
Several years ago I bought a few bales of CHC from a vendor that swore it was washed three times. I was putting my Phrags into a mix made up mostly of CHC so I figured it would save me the washing time. (CHC needs to be soaked a few times before it can be used because of the amount of accumulated salts in it.) So, I used it and my phrags got black leaf tips and then the leaves started yellowing - just like OrchidIse pictures.
When I repotted them, the roots were still nice and hard, albeit black and thin, but after repotting the plants grew fine new growths without any of the problems.
I also noticed that a couple growers experiencing the same problem were from the midwest and thought they may buy medium from the same vendor. One was from N. CA but, good medium is only purchasable at a show or through the mail, unless you're lucky enough to live near someone that sells it. In any case there are limited suppliers and there is a possibility that everyone purchased from one supplier.
Whether or not OrchidIse or the other forum members (or the members of other forums who may be the same posters as on this one that were just looking for some additional help) overfertilized or overwatered is way more likely, IMO, than a new virus or fungus - the possibilities of which (IMO) are tiny.
Everyone that ever grew orchids has overwatered and probably overfertilized to try to get the orchid to grow faster. To jump to a conclusion or suggest a probability that this is a new virus or fungus isn't supported by the symptoms and is extremely less likely.
Where did the new virus or fungus come from? Did it just happen to mutate in a couple of collections? After more than a year, why hasn't it shown up in more collections? I can't figure out any answers to even those basic questions. Therefore, (IMO) a new virus can be dismissed unless the more logical reasons are eliminated first.
A bacteria that has dried up and is resolved is possible. The symptoms are more suitable, and since it spread through just the Phals, which I would assume were all close together is much more likely. But still not as likely as overwatering (which could cause a bacterial infection) or even overfertilizing.
Here's my theory on what happened. I don't know how to get back to the original post without losing everything I've typed, so am playing this out from memory.
The original plant was purchased after being in it's original pot too long or was left without being repotted for too long. It also could have been that it was repotted from something other than moss into moss - which I've heard kills the root system although never have actually experienced. Or, the orchid was overfertilized, overwatered, or put into bad moss. At any rate, the roots were somehow ruined, which in turn ruined the leaves.
The reason there was some healthy roots when the plant was discarded 4 months later was because whatever caused the problem was stopped and the Phal started to put on new roots If it was put into bad moss the salts could have been washed out during the four months since repotting and getting rid of the orchid.
Now regarding another post (I really wish I could get back and quote it) about moss being mixed with other material, unless it was a major part of the mix, maybe there wasn't enough of it to effect the roots.
Regarding the neofenetia falcaltas, they are mostly done in a 5A grade of moss which may not have been effected (if it were a bad batch of moss),
But that is 100% incorrect because Hera wrote : You're right. Misread that.
No one here is insisting it is a virus but to some it seems that other possible causes have been mostly eliminated.
I probably misread your posts because I thought you were pretty convinced it was a new virus or fungus. On the other hand, I think everything but cultural causes have been eliminated.
If you have contacts you deal with in Taiwan send them the pictures and see what they say. [/QUOTE]
I would, but I have no idea how to send pictures. I'd post pics here if I knew how. I used to, but forgot. I'm an old dude. I can't even figure out how to use the quotes from previous posts like you can. I can type because I took a typing course in High school on a manual typewriter so I could type essays because my teachers couldn't read my handwriting and my parents thought everyone should know how to type.
Here's why I came up the bad medium idea - and I'm not saying that's the cause. In my original post it was just put forth as a wildass guess.
Several years ago I bought a few bales of CHC from a vendor that swore it was washed three times. I was putting my Phrags into a mix made up mostly of CHC so I figured it would save me the washing time. (CHC needs to be soaked a few times before it can be used because of the amount of accumulated salts in it.) So, I used it and my phrags got black leaf tips and then the leaves started yellowing - just like OrchidIse pictures.
When I repotted them, the roots were still nice and hard, albeit black and thin, but after repotting the plants grew fine new growths without any of the problems.
I also noticed that a couple growers experiencing the same problem were from the midwest and thought they may buy medium from the same vendor. One was from N. CA but, good medium is only purchasable at a show or through the mail, unless you're lucky enough to live near someone that sells it. In any case there are limited suppliers and there is a possibility that everyone purchased from one supplier.
Whether or not OrchidIse or the other forum members (or the members of other forums who may be the same posters as on this one that were just looking for some additional help) overfertilized or overwatered is way more likely, IMO, than a new virus or fungus - the possibilities of which (IMO) are tiny.
Everyone that ever grew orchids has overwatered and probably overfertilized to try to get the orchid to grow faster. To jump to a conclusion or suggest a probability that this is a new virus or fungus isn't supported by the symptoms and is extremely less likely.
Where did the new virus or fungus come from? Did it just happen to mutate in a couple of collections? After more than a year, why hasn't it shown up in more collections? I can't figure out any answers to even those basic questions. Therefore, (IMO) a new virus can be dismissed unless the more logical reasons are eliminated first.
A bacteria that has dried up and is resolved is possible. The symptoms are more suitable, and since it spread through just the Phals, which I would assume were all close together is much more likely. But still not as likely as overwatering (which could cause a bacterial infection) or even overfertilizing.
Here's my theory on what happened. I don't know how to get back to the original post without losing everything I've typed, so am playing this out from memory.
The original plant was purchased after being in it's original pot too long or was left without being repotted for too long. It also could have been that it was repotted from something other than moss into moss - which I've heard kills the root system although never have actually experienced. Or, the orchid was overfertilized, overwatered, or put into bad moss. At any rate, the roots were somehow ruined, which in turn ruined the leaves.
The reason there was some healthy roots when the plant was discarded 4 months later was because whatever caused the problem was stopped and the Phal started to put on new roots If it was put into bad moss the salts could have been washed out during the four months since repotting and getting rid of the orchid.
Now regarding another post (I really wish I could get back and quote it) about moss being mixed with other material, unless it was a major part of the mix, maybe there wasn't enough of it to effect the roots.
Regarding the neofenetia falcaltas, they are mostly done in a 5A grade of moss which may not have been effected (if it were a bad batch of moss),
orcoholic, email this link to your taiwan contact and it will open one of the pictures.... http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/640x480q90/834/u8h0.jpg
If you read through this whole thread you'll see that at first I said it was a nutritional problem. But after hearing how it appears basically only in Phals and how fast it spreads and it is fatal and it continues to progress while the plant is actually growing with healthy roots..... That makes me thing it is caused by a pathogen.
It does not respond to fungicide so may not be a fungus. the chlorosis resembles viral symptoms so that makes me suspect virus and that is where my thought is now.
If you look close in some of the pictures you'll see active growing roots so I don't think the plant should die in a few weeks time because of "bad roots".
The leaves don't look limp and desiccated from lack of water.
The problems you describe with CHC are definitely a quality control issue. But CHC is produced in a sodium rich environment so it is easy to have a bad batch of fiber. But Sphagnum moss is produced from fresh water bogs where there is not salt contamination.
To the point of if it's a new virus and where did it come from and why has it not spread faster.... Look at HIV, it started in one place and then slowly spread within a community and then spread quickly to the entire world. i'm no expert on viruses but I believe that a new virus can just appear as a mutant of another virus and spread from that point.
Maybe one of Monsantos genetic pets has escaped?
Something strange is killing entire Phalaenopsis collections and someone needs to figure it out soon.
If you read through this whole thread you'll see that at first I said it was a nutritional problem. But after hearing how it appears basically only in Phals and how fast it spreads and it is fatal and it continues to progress while the plant is actually growing with healthy roots..... That makes me thing it is caused by a pathogen.
It does not respond to fungicide so may not be a fungus. the chlorosis resembles viral symptoms so that makes me suspect virus and that is where my thought is now.
If you look close in some of the pictures you'll see active growing roots so I don't think the plant should die in a few weeks time because of "bad roots".
The leaves don't look limp and desiccated from lack of water.
The problems you describe with CHC are definitely a quality control issue. But CHC is produced in a sodium rich environment so it is easy to have a bad batch of fiber. But Sphagnum moss is produced from fresh water bogs where there is not salt contamination.
To the point of if it's a new virus and where did it come from and why has it not spread faster.... Look at HIV, it started in one place and then slowly spread within a community and then spread quickly to the entire world. i'm no expert on viruses but I believe that a new virus can just appear as a mutant of another virus and spread from that point.
Maybe one of Monsantos genetic pets has escaped?
Something strange is killing entire Phalaenopsis collections and someone needs to figure it out soon.
A
ALToronto
Guest
I have this problem in phals from many different sources:
Big Leaf, purchased directly from Peter when he was in Toronto
Kingfisher Orchids in Canada, imported from Taiwan shortly prior to my purchase
WalMart in Toronto, grown in Ontario, mass market noid
Lowes in Toronto, grown in Ontario, noid
No Frills (grocery store) in Toronto, grown in British Columbia, unlabeled wiganiae
Whole Foods in Toronto, had been growing well in original bark medium, declined once I potted it in lava rock.
Some of these plants have only pitting, and some have pitting and chlorosis. These conditions haven't prevented the phals from blooming - all of these are either currently in bloom or just finished blooming. All have lots of healthy looking roots. No signs of insects on any of them, but I sprayed them with SucraShield 4 weeks in a row just in case. The photos below were taken just after a spraying, in the bathtub. I'm dumbfounded.
Here are the worst affected phals
Big Leaf, purchased directly from Peter when he was in Toronto
Kingfisher Orchids in Canada, imported from Taiwan shortly prior to my purchase
WalMart in Toronto, grown in Ontario, mass market noid
Lowes in Toronto, grown in Ontario, noid
No Frills (grocery store) in Toronto, grown in British Columbia, unlabeled wiganiae
Whole Foods in Toronto, had been growing well in original bark medium, declined once I potted it in lava rock.
Some of these plants have only pitting, and some have pitting and chlorosis. These conditions haven't prevented the phals from blooming - all of these are either currently in bloom or just finished blooming. All have lots of healthy looking roots. No signs of insects on any of them, but I sprayed them with SucraShield 4 weeks in a row just in case. The photos below were taken just after a spraying, in the bathtub. I'm dumbfounded.
Here are the worst affected phals
naoki
Well-Known Member
Yours look quite different from Isa's. It is almost impossible to diagnose viral infection with eyeballs, but the one on the top with spots remind me something I saw in a recent paper (I might be remembering it wrong, though). This is the abstract of the paper:
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10658-008-9281-6
It identified a novel virus class (new to Phals, a kind of potyvirus). Earlier, it was called Phalaenopsis chlorotic spot virus (PhCSV). I don't have the access to the full text of the paper. You can probably see the figures of this paper here:
http://www.springerimages.com/Images/LifeSciences/1-10.1007_s10658-008-9281-6-0
But if you google potyvirus, you can get this document with some photos:
http://hark-orchideen.com/CD/EN/Pflanzenschutz/Virosen/print.html
I don't know how accurate this document is, though.
But, if I were you, I'd try bunch of systemic and protectant fungicides in addition to Aspirin (it can't cure viral disease, but reduced viral transmission rate were observed in some virus and non-orchid plants). http://www.smokymtnorchidsociety.com/FungicidesandBactericidesforOrchidDiseases.pdf
Also, some of them don't look like the same symptom.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10658-008-9281-6
It identified a novel virus class (new to Phals, a kind of potyvirus). Earlier, it was called Phalaenopsis chlorotic spot virus (PhCSV). I don't have the access to the full text of the paper. You can probably see the figures of this paper here:
http://www.springerimages.com/Images/LifeSciences/1-10.1007_s10658-008-9281-6-0
But if you google potyvirus, you can get this document with some photos:
http://hark-orchideen.com/CD/EN/Pflanzenschutz/Virosen/print.html
I don't know how accurate this document is, though.
But, if I were you, I'd try bunch of systemic and protectant fungicides in addition to Aspirin (it can't cure viral disease, but reduced viral transmission rate were observed in some virus and non-orchid plants). http://www.smokymtnorchidsociety.com/FungicidesandBactericidesforOrchidDiseases.pdf
Also, some of them don't look like the same symptom.
Did this start with one plant and then spread to the others?
If yes....
What was the source of the plant?
How quickly did other plants become infected (or afflicted)?
Are you using any kind of unusual fertilizer scheme?
Is it possible for the same pathogen to present differing symptoms under differing environmental and nutritional conditions?
There looks to be some similarity to Isa's plants in the advanced stage along the leaf center?
A
ALToronto
Guest
Naoki, thanks for the paper links. I shudder to think that it might be a virus.
The affected phals were in different locations. I had a group of 3 sitting together (bottom photo), then some distance away two more, then 3 others in a different room. The only commonality between them was the abrupt drop in temperature when winter arrived with a vengeance.
Now that I think about it, temperature was probably the biggest factor. I hate air conditioning, so in the summer, the temp inside our house reaches 30 degrees, especially in the windows. And in the winter it pretty much stayed at 16-18. Humidity is 60% in the winter, 70-80% in the summer. Could it be that the phals got used to the heat and couldn't handle the cold? Am I better off running the air conditioning in the summer to avoid such huge temp swings between seasons? My husband would certainly appreciate it!
So could this be an extreme case of mesophyll cell collapse? The new leaves that have come out since these photos were taken and since the temp went up above 20 degrees are all perfect.
A
ALToronto
Guest
My fertilizer regime is very little, every watering. I keep the N at 10-20 ppm and alternate between K-lite, Dyna-Gro Grow and Neptune's Harvest fish and seaweed, all with RO water. On rare occasion I will use Plant Prod 25-10-10 with 75-25% RO-tap water.
Some of the phals are in sphagnum and are watered weekly or so. Some are in lava rock and are watered daily.
Most significant - no other orchids are affected. Only the phals, and only the mature phals. Of the hundred or so seedlings I have, only about 5 plants are showing these symptoms, and they all experienced the same temp swings. They're also close to both groups of affected orchids on my main windowsill (the one in my avatar).
Some of the phals are in sphagnum and are watered weekly or so. Some are in lava rock and are watered daily.
Most significant - no other orchids are affected. Only the phals, and only the mature phals. Of the hundred or so seedlings I have, only about 5 plants are showing these symptoms, and they all experienced the same temp swings. They're also close to both groups of affected orchids on my main windowsill (the one in my avatar).
The temperature swings are within the range for Phals. The sudden drop in temps below 20c will induce flower spikes.
The fact you are seeing healthy new leaves is something to note.
When the problem appeared were new leaves affected right away or were the new leaves not deteriorating until they matured?
Nutritional suspect might be the seaweed, specifically the ammino acids and hormones they are adding.
That is one unknown chemical set that many people are adding to the K-lite regime of low potassium fertilizing.
So growers that have or had this problem.... Are you using seaweed or other products with the amino acids/hormone content?
What effect does an excess of amino acid have on Phals?
The fact you are seeing healthy new leaves is something to note.
When the problem appeared were new leaves affected right away or were the new leaves not deteriorating until they matured?
Nutritional suspect might be the seaweed, specifically the ammino acids and hormones they are adding.
That is one unknown chemical set that many people are adding to the K-lite regime of low potassium fertilizing.
So growers that have or had this problem.... Are you using seaweed or other products with the amino acids/hormone content?
What effect does an excess of amino acid have on Phals?
Did they look this bad before spraying? This looks like a chemical burn - almost like an oil based spray put on and then plants put in sun.
Had to go to one of the Taiwanese growers today and took my laptop so he could see pics. He looked and looked and then said "I don't know".
Thanks for the link Lance . He's sending it to his company in Taiwan to see if they can help.
Thanks for the link Lance . He's sending it to his company in Taiwan to see if they can help.
A
ALToronto
Guest
Yes, they looked this bad before spraying. I'm using SucraShield, diluted as per label directions. I use it on all my plants with no problems. Prior to SS I had been using a sulphur spray, but stopped due to the muddy residue. I've used sulphur powder straight with no issues.
Is sucrashield rated for mites? Pitting could be from them.
Is the shiny, sappy looking stuff on the leaves always there, or a result of recently spraying with ss?
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