Phrag. besseae 'Fox Valley' FCC/AOS

[Rick]

Hey Rick,

One of the reasons it's lasted almost twenty years is because we've resisted mightily the urge to use it as a capsule parent. We've used it several times as a pollen parent for line breeding to create a superior besseae strain, but not as a capsule parent.

Thanks,

Tom does that mean that all your capsule parents are dead?

That would be like the pollen from this flower is the kiss of death!!!

 

[tomkalina]

Hi Rick,

No, they're not all dead, but the majority of our capsule-bearing Phrag besseaes' do appear to be under some stress by the time capsules are harvested, and I don't want to risk losing a highly awarded $$$ plant.


Thanks,

 

[John M]

Hi Rick,

No, they're not all dead, but the majority of our capsule-bearing Phrag besseaes' do appear to be under some stress by the time capsules are harvested, and I don't want to risk losing a highly awarded $$$ plant.


Thanks,

Hmmm; interesting. Obviously, you've got tons of experience. So, is it safe to assume that you feel allowing a reasonably healthy plant to flower is okay; but, putting a capsule on any plant causes it considerable additional stress and can in some cases, facilitate premature death, especially if the plant is weak or immature to begin with(?), as discussed here: http://http://www.slippertalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23286

 

[tomkalina]

Hey John,

Thanks for the interesting thread-link. I'm probably being a little too conservative about the ability of Phrag. besseae `Fox Valley' FCC/AOS to mature a seed pod without harming the plant, but it's based on several decades of watching my favorite Phrag. species (besseae) grow, bloom and (sometimes) die as a result of our propagation activity. Sometimes, unfortunately, there are few physical markers to rely on to gage plant health; only a gut feeling that a plant might suffer as a result of pollination. In those cases, especially as it concerns our awarded plants, we tend toward being conservative rather than aggressive.

 

[John M]

So, you take a "better safe than sorry"...just in case, approach to putting a capsule on a special plant. Makes sense. That's basically why I had the opinion I did in the other thread about putting a capsule on that awarded kovachii. It was a valuable, awarded plant that was not terribly big or robust. So, I felt that it would be better to wait until the plant was older and larger, before it was made to carry a capsule. As you read, some others felt differently.

 

[tomkalina]

Hi John,

As breeders, we need to let the plants grow to become large, healthy specimens before using them as capsule parents. Not only because it's easier on the plant, but also because germination rates tend to be higher when we use healthy parents. The urge to produce seedlings, especially from weak awarded stock or poorly grown rarities like Pk, can be hard to resist because of market demands, but the result is too often the loss of valuable breeding plants. When this happens, the alpha gene pool is diminished.

Thanks,

 

[Leo Schordje]

I agree with Tom's approach toward using a valuable plant as a capsule parent.

Not stated is a second reason to be cautious with which plants you use as pod parents. VIRUS. It is possible to transfer some infected tissue along with the pollen on a toothpick when hybridizing. IF the pollen donor is infected with a virus, there is the chance that the capsule parent can be infected by the tissue that came along with the pollen. This has been documented in Cattleya and Phals. There are some documented cases of Phrags carrying virus, especially the old pre- WWII hybrids like Sedenii and Calurum. With a valuable plant, I grow it until I can have 2 or 3 divisions (heir and a spare) and then label only one division as being allowed to be used as a capsule parent. I then also take precautions with that plant after it has carried a few seed capsules, and treat it as if it were asymptomatic for virus. This way I keep a division or two clean for vegetative propagation and exhibition, and in addition have the division that is used only for carrying capsules. Tom's technique fits quite well with a good virus control program.

This approach does slow down the 'mad race' to produce hybrids, but it is the only way to keep valuable genetic material clean for the long term.

Good thinking Tom.

 

[John M]

All very well said, Leo.....and a good point about the virus risk. I have not made some crosses with my Cattleyas because I had this same concern.

 

[Erythrone]

I agree with Tom's approach toward using a valuable plant as a capsule parent.

Not stated is a second reason to be cautious with which plants you use as pod parents. VIRUS. It is possible to transfer some infected tissue along with the pollen on a toothpick when hybridizing. IF the pollen donor is infected with a virus, there is the chance that the capsule parent can be infected by the tissue that came along with the pollen. This has been documented in Cattleya and Phals. There are some documented cases of Phrags carrying virus, especially the old pre- WWII hybrids like Sedenii and Calurum. With a valuable plant, I grow it until I can have 2 or 3 divisions (heir and a spare) and then label only one division as being allowed to be used as a capsule parent. I then also take precautions with that plant after it has carried a few seed capsules, and treat it as if it were asymptomatic for virus. This way I keep a division or two clean for vegetative propagation and exhibition, and in addition have the division that is used only for carrying capsules. Tom's technique fits quite well with a good virus control program.

This approach does slow down the 'mad race' to produce hybrids, but it is the only way to keep valuable genetic material clean for the long term.

Good thinking Tom.

Very interesting!

 

[Leo Schordje]

All very well said, Leo.....and a good point about the virus risk. I have not made some crosses with my Cattleyas because I had this same concern.

If you use the suspected virused plant as the capsule parent, and then allow the seed capsules to mature to dry seed, sowing the seed only after it is dry - the seed will be free of virus. Green pod seed culture is off limits if you suspect virus. Selfing a virused plant and letting it go to mature seed pod & dry seed is a good way to clean virus out of a genetic strain or line. Any sap transfered in handling green pods can carry the virus and infect the mother flasks.

Actually it was Arnie Klehm who was my original source for this information on viruses. I had been offered a known virused plant, and was asking how to handle it so that I wouldn't infect my other plants. After an hour or so of back and forth discussion, I chose to not accept the virused plant from the 3rd party, even though it was a very rare in the US plant (Lycaste mathiasae). Sadly the 3rd party didn't want to risk having a virused plant in their collection, and destroyed the plant before a safe home could be found for it. I don't know if this species is still in cultivation. A sad little tale from some 20 years ago.

Anti Virus Keys:
1.) Wash hands between touching virused and non-virused plants.
2.) sterilize cutting tools between plants, I use single edge razor blade and just throw them out after use. (in a metal tin, then into the recycling bin).
3.) absolutely keep all sucking insect infestations to zero. It is documented that aphids can transfer bean mossaic virus from plant to plant, I suspect (but have no proof) that they can transfer other viruses as well. In the same light, I also suspect that other sucking insects might be able to move virus from one orchid to another.
4.) If a plant is suspected of being virused, do not let its leaves touch other plants. Keep a segregated, spacially separate area for virused plants.
5.) sterilize pots before re-use, also never transfer used media from one plant to another.

There may be more steps, but this is what comes off the top of my head.
Hope this helps.

 

[tomkalina]

Virus is, thankfully, quite rare in modern day Phrag. breeding. As charming as a Pre-WW2 Phrag. Sedenii, Calurum or Schroederae can be, I wouldn't allow one in the greenhouse because of the virus issue. Once again, I'm probably erring on the side of being too conservative, but that's the way it is.

 

[Leo Schordje]

I have always been impressed with your skill at growing and maintaining healthy stock over the years.

 

[Justin]

Virus is, thankfully, quite rare in modern day Phrag. breeding. As charming as a Pre-WW2 Phrag. Sedenii, Calurum or Schroederae can be, I wouldn't allow one in the greenhouse because of the virus issue. Once again, I'm probably erring on the side of being too conservative, but that's the way it is.

i just got a sedenii division...was that a mistake? no clonal name. is there any way to know if it is modern or "heirlooom"?

 

[NYEric]

To be honest I only know of one vendor who had modern Sedenii, where did you get yours?

 

[Lycaste53]

What means ´Pre-WW2 Phrag. Sedenii´,
I have two Sedenii, from Franz Glanz, Unterwössen, Germany, but I don´t understand the term ´Pre-WW2´?
Best regards, Gina

 

[Justin]

i got mine when i visited roberts flower supply last month. they had several dvisions they got from another grower.

i suppose i can send it in for testing. any idea which particular virus Sedenii is known to have?

 

[John M]

Gina, "Pre-WW2" means "from before World War II". He could have just as easily said "from before the 1940's" and it would've meant the same thing. His concern of course, is that plants which have been around for over 70 years....and which have been divided and divided and divided, are more likely to have been infected with virus at some point. It's not such a big concern with Phrags as it is other orchids; but, it is still a valid concern that a commercial grower with valuable breeding stock would take into consideration. Heirloom Cattleyas that have been around for decades is one group of orchids that often prove to be virused. You want to be very careful when buying an old Cattleya....especially if you are paying a high price!

 

[Lycaste53]

Gina, "Pre-WW2" means "from before World War II". He could have just as easily said "from before the 1940's" and it would've meant the same thing. His concern of course, is that plants which have been around for over 70 years....and which have been divided and divided and divided, are more likely to have been infected with virus at some point. It's not such a big concern with Phrags as it is other orchids; but, it is still a valid concern that a commercial grower with valuable breeding stock would take into consideration. Heirloom Cattleyas that have been around for decades is one group of orchids that often prove to be virused. You want to be very careful when buying an old Cattleya....especially if you are paying a high price!

Thank you very much.
Best regards, Gina

 

[NYEric]

i got mine when i visited roberts flower supply last month. they had several dvisions they got from another grower.

the newer looking ones I saw were at a vendor in NJ. The one I have I'm sure is from pre WW2. I was surprised that Sedenii's divisions have been around so long where as some besseae hybrids were made once and have pretty much disappeared.

 

[Stone]

Superb:clap: