Phrag. Mem. Dick Clements sib cross

[Kevin]

SO, If it was up to me, yes I would do sib crosses,
Robert

Isn't it up to you? You often say in your posts that 'I decided to make this cross...', or something along those lines. There's probably more to it than that, as I know you don't own the company, but just for clarification.

 

[Drorchid]

Isn't it up to you? You often say in your posts that 'I decided to make this cross...', or something along those lines. There's probably more to it than that, as I know you don't own the company, but just for clarification.

Yes, it is up to me, as I am the breeder here at Orchids Limited...but you are right, Jerry does own the place, so he does give me suggestions once in a while of a cross to make, but sometimes I am already thinking ahead of him as I sometimes have already made it...and I meant the "if it is up to me" more on general terms...

Robert

 

[John M]

This thread has been very interesting and informative. Thanks Robert!

 

[tim]

complexes though

Robert & Slippertalker -

You both make good points, but you refer to primary or near primary plants that lots of people will want regardless. Even a bad Macabre is "sellable", as is a Mem. Dick Clements...a bad Winston Churchill is not.

WC and Hellas are not especially strong examples of the benefits of f2 - the sibbings of WC for example have yielded very very low percentages of award quality offspring, and none of the f2s have been used in breeding (or at least very little compared to the f1s Indomitable and Redoubtable)...all the line bred WCs I've seen are not as good as either parent on a good blooming. I'd have to imagine this is because the number of plants is pretty low because not too many people were interested in them. Skip Bartlett is the same story - I wonder how many of Hadley's f2s are out there in the world right now...(are you even sure that Skip Bartlett 'Marriott Quintessence' is an f2 and not a remake?)

Hellas is a little different - I have never had a seed pod take on 'La Buena Tierra Sunset', which is an f2. Certainly we've seen that Hellas 'Sunset' is a very good breeder and quite useful, but that's an f3. That means it took someone upwards of 15 years and countless bad Hellas clones to get one good one? Is that worth it from a breeder's perspective? A nursery owner's perspective?

Terry was precisely the nursery owner I was referring to in the previous psot with whom I've had this discussion. I think it's tremendously worthwhile to sib complexes, but when I asked him his opinion, he was most decidedly against it, because of the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. For example, Robert, are you going to sib your two great clones of Paph Totally Awesome (made and registered by Orchids Limited)? My guess is no, and I'm anxious to find out why. I think this might be an incredibly interesting avenue for someone with the space and resources to grow some of them out...and besides it's always interesting to hear an expert's perspective...

Thanks!!
-Tim

 

[slippertalker]

You make an interesting point regarding Hellas and WC. There are improvements with F2 and F3 sibling crosses but it is quite well documented that the original plants are the best for hybridizing even with poorer form. With all complex crosses including sibling crosses there are a large percentage of mediocre (or worse) flowers. Typically a large number of plants need to be bloomed to select the few very nice ones. There are exceptions to this rule but it seems to be the norm. Some crosses have nothing but poor flowers.

 

[Drorchid]

For example, Robert, are you going to sib your two great clones of Paph Totally Awesome (made and registered by Orchids Limited)? My guess is no, and I'm anxious to find out why. I think this might be an incredibly interesting avenue for someone with the space and resources to grow some of them out...and besides it's always interesting to hear an expert's perspective...

Thanks!!
-Tim

Yes, You make some good points, but I see no problem in sibbing two complex Paph's. And yes I probably would sib the 2 Totally Awesome plants. I think one reason that you don't always get good results when you sib 2 complex plants is just the nature of complex hybridizing. Even when you make a regular complex cross (between 2 different grexes), you only get a few that will be high quality and of those even fewer will turn out to be good breeders, and that is why it is hard to beet plants like Paph. Hellas 'Westonbirt' and Paph. Winston Churchill 'Indomitable'. Besides being excellent breeders they are also excellent just by them selves. They have been selected "over time" as proven winners, so even if you sib WC 'Indomitable' with 'Redoutable' the chance of getting something that is just as good as either parent is slim, but I would still do it, the chance of getting something good with two excellent parents is still higher than crossing two not so good parents together.

And to answer your question regarding Skip Bartlett, Yes I am pretty sure that was from a selfing of 'White Pepper' and not a remake of Skip Bartlett (I asked Hadley that myself). So that shows that you can get something better than the original parent (although I do not know how well of a breeder it is).

Robert