Phrag Yelva Myhre progeny question

[Morja]

For such an intensely colored plant with many (seemingly, to me) awards, it's crazy to me that I'm not seeing more crosses with Yelva Myhre in their background. Did Ecuagenera originally make this hybrid, and thus somewhat holds the breeding "rights" (even if they are unofficial)? Not sure how that works.
Orchid Roots says there are three named crosses out there: Ecuagenera Flame, Jorge Portilla, and Pepe Portilla. I can't find pictures of any of them except for Pepe, which was on this forum December of last year. I am very curious if anyone else has any of these and how they look blooming. Thanks!

 

[mrhappyrotter]

Did Ecuagenera originally make this hybrid, and thus somewhat holds the breeding "rights" (even if they are unofficial)?

It doesn't look like Ecuagenera registered the hybrid. I suppose B. Myhre may be associated with them. The registration goes to whomever flowered the hybrid first and registered it, not necessarily to the original breeder. Off hand, I can't tell you for sure if Ecuagenera was the first to make this hybrid. Perhaps someone else knows.

Either way, there's no "breeding rights", official or otherwise in a case like this that I'm aware of.

I don't know the specifics for this particular hybrid and don't have a specific explanation for why it hasn't been used much for further breeding. I have some assumptions and conjecture, but those types of things are generally not well received around here, so I'll bow out.

 

[big923cattleya]

As far as I know, the breeder, and only the breeder has the right to name the hybrid. But there are exceptions. Fred Clarke for example has allowed the first person to bloom some of his hybrids name them. I think that they just have to check with Fred first.
I know of several cases of some one naming Phalaenopsis crosses in the Naples area. Those were illegally named but once registered and accepted by the RHS, the governing body for registration, how does one disprove it??
When I moved away from there in 2018, none of those instances were resolved as far as I know.

But I would think that if a hybridizer complained to the RHS, they would not register additional crosses from that offender.

 

[tnyr5]

When something is awesome but has no progeny, 99% of the time, it's because it's sterile as sterile can be.

 

[kman]

Oh, joy. A lumber and splitter opportunity. Phrag. kaieteurum is, according to the person I trust on this, Frank Cervera, really just another inappropriate name for Phrag. lindleyanum. That makes this hybrid Peruvian Fire, which as far as I can see has no progeny.

The splitting of Phragmipedium into so many pseudo-species makes the nomenclature of it's hybrids very confusing.

 

[Morja]

When something is awesome but has no progeny, 99% of the time, it's because it's sterile as sterile can be.

I was wondering this. Like maybe all the awarded ones are uh, extra special.

I have some assumptions and conjecture, but those types of things are generally not well received around here, so I'll bow out.

Though this leaves me curious, I respect one's desire not to stir the pot to the point of overboil (I will, however, remain curious).

Oh, joy. A lumber and splitter opportunity. Phrag. kaieteurum is, according to the person I trust on this, Frank Cervera, really just another inappropriate name for Phrag. lindleyanum. That makes this hybrid Peruvian Fire, which as far as I can see has no progeny.

The splitting of Phragmipedium into so many pseudo-species makes the nomenclature of it's hybrids very confusing.

Ahhh so there is a can of worms my unknowing question could get us into. I see. So following this line of thought, Yelva Myhre and Peruvian Fire could be considered the same?

How juicy this has turned out to be. Lol.

 

[Morja]

As far as I know, the breeder, and only the breeder has the right to name the hybrid. But there are exceptions. Fred Clarke for example has allowed the first person to bloom some of his hybrids name them. I think that they just have to check with Fred first.
I know of several cases of some one naming Phalaenopsis crosses in the Naples area. Those were illegally named but once registered and accepted by the RHS, the governing body for registration, how does one disprove it??
When I moved away from there in 2018, none of those instances were resolved as far as I know.

But I would think that if a hybridizer complained to the RHS, they would not register additional crosses from that offender.

Also, thank you for clarifying this as I am new enough to such things that I was unclear.

 

[gonewild]

Alfredo Manrique made the cross Yelva Myhre about 12 years ago. He allowed Bjorn to register it as he was the first to flower it.
You don't see many crosses with it because the Rosalie Dexler parent was a 4n tetraploid. So Yelva Myhre is a sterile 3n triploid.

 

[Morja]

Alfredo Manrique made the cross Yelva Myhre about 12 years ago. He allowed Bjorn to register it as he was the first to flower it.
You don't see many crosses with it because the Rosalie Dexler parent was a 4n tetraploid. So Yelva Myhre is a sterile 3n triploid.

Thank you!! I guess that clears it up then, at least for me.

 

[Ray]

Concerning "who can register" a cross, this is right off the RHS application form:

Applicant’s declaration regarding originator: Either
(1) I am the Originator as defined in Note 5 overleaf, or

(2) The Originator is unknown as explained by me overleaf, or

(3) The Originator's name and address is: ____________ and
(a) has given permission for this application, or
(b) is no longer extant, has no living spouse and no assignee is known to me, or
(c) has not replied to any written request for permission as sent to him on (date - over 3 months ago)

Concerning the sterility of a particular cross, if the parents are both diploid or tetraploid, all should be well. We know that a diploid x tetraploid results in triploids that cannot breed with either due to the n-count mismatch, but can two triploids breed successfully?

 

[Austin Creek]

A couple of years ago, I had plants from 2 unnamed crosses awarded. One of them was from Fred Clarke who graciously registered it under the name I suggested. In the other case, the breeder (in Taiwan) gave me permission to register it as long as I indicated they were the originator of the cross.

 

[BrucherT]

Oh, joy. A lumber and splitter opportunity. Phrag. kaieteurum is, according to the person I trust on this, Frank Cervera, really just another inappropriate name for Phrag. lindleyanum. That makes this hybrid Peruvian Fire, which as far as I can see has no progeny.

The splitting of Phragmipedium into so many pseudo-species makes the nomenclature of it's hybrids very confusing.

Inexpensive genetic sequencing would solve these questions so easily and thoroughly.

 

[gonewild]

Concerning the sterility of a particular cross, if the parents are both diploid or tetraploid, all should be well. We know that a diploid x tetraploid results in triploids that cannot breed with either due to the n-count mismatch, but can two triploids breed successfully?

I've tried to use triploids with zero success. A few times seed capsules developed and matured but with no seed produced.
I understand some cym breeders have had success using triploids but the results were not good and just continued the dead end line.

 

[kman]

With Cymbidiums there has been some success doing meristem tissue culture of triploids and converting to hexaploids. These are sometimes very productive and sometimes fertile.