Phragmipedium kovachii

[gonewild]

Denis,
Taxonomy from photographs is fairly weak, and should always be qualified with a disclaimer stating so.

And dried pressed flower specimens are not a good way to add subtle color descriptions either.

 

[Berthold]

Differences in shape of significant structures like the staminode or the pouch are key, color is not.

Generally I agree completely but not in this case.

I believe the yellow colour at the exposed position of the flower is important for the pollination process and therefore it is esential for the species.

But I am still unsure and will proceed in collecting data.

 

[gonewild]

Generally I agree completely but not in this case.

I believe the yellow colour at the exposed position of the flower is important for the pollination process and therefore it is esential for the species.

But I am still unsure and will proceed in collecting data.

Really? With the giant purple bloom I would think that was what attracted the pollenator and not the yellow that is not very visible.

 

[Berthold]

Really? With the giant purple bloom I would think that was what attracted the pollenator and not the yellow that is not very visible.

Yes but there must be a special motivation for somebody to scrabble into the shoe

 

[likespaphs]

what's the chance that there is a range of colors (i.e. with our without the yellow) and that the ones in the wild that are most successful have the yellow and ones that were not successful (i.e. not pollinated) may not have the yellow
just a thought
(but i imagine it was said before)

 

[Berthold]

what's the chance that there is a range of colors (i.e. with our without the yellow) and that the ones in the wild that are most successful have the yellow and ones that were not successful (i.e. not pollinated) may not have the yellow

right, but if there is no pollination due to missing yellow the plant cannot survive and would have been exstinguished.

 

[Marc]

Maybe it's a specific trait for a specific pk colony. At the moment I think it's a bit far fetched to make assumptions based on pictures viewed on the net regarding if a plant shown on a picture is a species yes or no.

 

[Kyle]

right, but if there is no pollination due to missing yellow the plant cannot survive and would have been exstinguished.

Quite the opposite, producing seed take a lot of energy from a plant. Plants which never do this likely will be stronger. And since the plants live indifinatly, those plants likely form large clumps and were most attractive to collectors. I doubt your hybrid theory, could just be a mutant.

Kyle

 

[Berthold]

Quite the opposite, producing seed take a lot of energy from a plant. Plants which never do this likely will be stronger. And since the plants live indifinatly, those plants likely form large clumps and were most attractive to collectors. I doubt your hybrid theory, could just be a mutant.

Kyle

no, individual livetime is always limited due to never perfect genetic multiplying and therefore no plant exists in the world which can only multiply in a vegetative way.

 

[Kyle]

no, individual livetime is always limited due to never perfect genetic multiplying and therefore no plant exists in the world which can only multiply in a vegetative way.

If I understand you correctly, you are wrong. In theory, an orchid could live forever.

 

[Berthold]

an orchid could live forever.

no sorry, that is not possible because the reproduction process of the cell doesn't work 100% perfectly.
And by that You always get a degeneration effect after a certain number of reproductions.

 

[NYEric]

I've personally seen orchids over 100 years old. I cant see why a plant kant keepsetting bulbs, etc, to continue growing.

 

[likespaphs]

some species have long lived plants and others seem to grow for a short time, then die
i don't know if kovachii has been grown long enough in cultivation to know this
i was thinking that the pouch color is a variable that keeps coming up. perhaps a previous pollinator preferred the yellow rim and that's why it keeps coming up in some individuals, just in case that pollinator comes back around.
i dunno, probably just a silly theory

 

[Kyle]

no sorry, that is not possible because the reproduction process of the cell doesn't work 100% perfectly.
And by that You always get a degeneration effect after a certain number of reproductions.

I don't usually get baited into silly arguments, but, hear I am..

I put in theory because there are exceptions.

Some plants may mutate themselfs to death, but the vast majority do not, and I'm talking 98%. Plants don't get cancer, not like animals. If in fact there are plants without yellow, they are likely outliars in the bell curve of variation. I am not convinced the yellow serves any function.

 

[valenzino]

To find out you must first discover wich is the pollinator..or pollinators...
then,if same pollinator also pollinate another Phrag species for example,you will already know that the yellow lines are useless or only makeing a small difference...
And as Leo said is impossible to have already 2nd generation Pk's hybrids,only way to have a Pk similar flower...
and even if it was possible,there still a good percntage that genetically the hybrid will show the yellow lines in a part of seedlings...so I think is a nearly impossible speculation to solve that way...is better you go to Peru' during Pk flowering season and go see flowered plants in the wild,to solve your doubts.
Good luck!

Generally I agree completely but not in this case.

I believe the yellow colour at the exposed position of the flower is important for the pollination process and therefore it is esential for the species.

But I am still unsure and will proceed in collecting data.

 

[Berthold]

I don't usually get baited into silly arguments, but, Some plants may mutate themselfs to death, but the vast majority do not, and I'm talking 98%.

No, that is wrong, 100% of induviduals mutate to death, not via cancer of course.
All individual plants (not the species) have a limited live time, but the mechanism which courses the limitation differs between animals an plant.

 

[Erythrone]

Maybe you are right Berthold. I never heard of this. Any reference on the subject?

 

[Berthold]

Maybe you are right Berthold. I never heard of this. Any reference on the subject?

Have a look at the work of this lady http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiane_Nüsslein-Volhard
She got the Nobel prize for studies on that subject (not plants but human beeings)

 

[valenzino]

No, that is wrong, 100% of induviduals mutate to death, not via cancer of course.
All individual plants (not the species) have a limited live time, but the mechanism which courses the limitation differs between animals an plant.

I think have not to be considered a "mutation".Is degeneration in the DNA.More or less what happens to humans...the reason why we became old unfortunately...obviously in plants,particularly the ones that regenerate compleately new organs every year,is different and slower...but think about it...the older plants around known can have 10-15000 years?...There are no plants around that are milions years old....
so Berthold is right in my opinion about degeneration or as he call it mutation...But that dont mean that an orchid can live enough to do what Kyle says.
I understand the point that Berthold take up,but in my opinion he is too strict in his point....every liveing creature have peculiarities,organs etc...that may seems to be important but in reality are useless but still carry them...and absolutely a difference like the one of the yellow lines can be a symptom that demostrate that the plant is hybrid...first you have to find out also evidence of the genetic of another plant inside...
This because,as all species originate from evolution of mutation..from a species to another,and many times including natural hybridization,if we hang to strictly to those small peculiarity,we might consider all slipper orchids as bastards...as probably are originated from the same milions years old ancestral plant.

 

[gonewild]

No, that is wrong, 100% of induviduals mutate to death, not via cancer of course.
All individual plants (not the species) have a limited live time, but the mechanism which courses the limitation differs between animals an plant.

You assume that all mutations are in a degenerative direction?
100% to death is a difficult number to defend in a valid argument.