Possible outcome of Cattleya trianae var. concolor 'Rio Yari' x Cattleya trianae var. pincelada 'Valência'?

[Alvaro78]

I acquired this cross last year and I am still wondering what the possible outcome could be. Is concolor a recessive trait? I know flamea is a dominant trait but I don’t know if pincelada is the same.
I think some of that cross would come concolor, some would be a mix of a bit of concolor with some traces on the lip and others would be a normal tipo with degrees of pincelada. Am I correct?

Thank you!

 

[My Green Pets]

my guess is that your plant will look more like the second photo. but we won't know until it blooms...

 

[big923cattleya]

I think you might be over estimating the results here.
We are talking about a sib cross here. All genes are within Cattleya trianae. I think that this severely limits the possible outcomes from such a cross.
I quite honestly do not understand why exactly this sib cross was made. On one hand it seems that you have a floppy trianae with a droopy presentation and a twisted dorsal.
Then you cross that with a plant with better form, fuller petals and better color and substance. I would start out feeling like it could produce plants somewhere between the two siblings. I doubt that many will be noticeably better than the one shown here. If that is true, why make the cross, just mericlone the better flower?! You won’t get results from a lesser clone that are better than your better clone. Combining lesser with better does not really produce better blooms. There should be some lessening of the outcome expected. Look at rothschildianum!!!! Hybridizers used clones with better and better flower counts to produce 4 flowers per, then five, and now 6 flowers.
Those hybridizers took flowers with wider petals looking for Roth’s to get wider and wider petals. At the same time they are sib crossing darker clones to get darker and darker flowers. Flowers with crisper markings.
If you are breeding for better Roth’s., why place a “genetic clunker” into the mix??? Makes no sense to me.
That essentially is what you have here. This is why I rarely buy sib crosses.

 

[Alvaro78]

my guess is that your plant will look more like the second photo. but we won't know until it blooms...

I see, I was hoping it could somehow be a bit of a mix or a pretty concolor so we just have to wait

 

[Alvaro78]

I think you might be over estimating the results here.
We are talking about a sib cross here. All genes are within Cattleya trianae. I think that this severely limits the possible outcomes from such a cross.
I quite honestly do not understand why exactly this sib cross was made. On one hand it seems that you have a floppy trianae with a droopy presentation and a twisted dorsal.

So the limitation is because there are a lot of possible outcomes from such a cross?
There are other pics from this cross where both have a pretty straight dorsal so I am also kind of lost on what they wanted to achieve from this cross haha but my knowledge of genetics is pretty limited. Would you say the chances of getting a concolor with some pincelada are impossible? I wasn't able to find such a trianae when I searched online. Thanks!

 

[big923cattleya]

Not impossible. But who can even say how many if any?
Yes it is a cross per se, but it is trianae times trianae.
What I am saying is that if you cross a large standard Cattleya like Cattleya Pamela Hetherington ( a large, pink flowered hybrid with Laelia pumila) you might be trying to reduce the size of Hetherington, making it compact. You may be trying to use a darker colored pumila trying to introduce more color into the offspring, you might see a few. So much of it depends on the genes of pumila, the strength of those genes to reduce plant size, induce more color, OR are the Hetherington’s genes so dominate that little if any pumila traits shine through?
But in the case of trianae on trianae, it is all trianae genes. The more genes that one has in their “genetic pallete”, the more room that
Exists to produce different results.

Hybridizers spend years trying to produce specific results. Some are more successful the others. Some hybridizers may make a certain cross because both parents ‘just happen to be in flower’. That is not a plan in my mind.
The more complex the parents are, the wider that the results might be. With trianae and trianae, that is very limiting in comparison.
Trianae by trianae might be like a 4’ 10” mother making a child with her 5’ 9” husband hoping to produce a 6’9” basketball All Star!!!! What are the odds?
Again, if you really like a particular clone of trianae, why not just clone it. Don’t introduce something inferior to produce something superior.

 

[Alvaro78]

Not impossible. But who can even say how many if any?
Yes it is a cross per se, but it is trianae times trianae.
What I am saying is that if you cross a large standard Cattleya like Cattleya Pamela Hetherington ( a large, pink flowered hybrid with Laelia pumila) you might be trying to reduce the size of Hetherington, making it compact. You may be trying to use a darker colored pumila trying to introduce more color into the offspring, you might see a few. So much of it depends on the genes of pumila, the strength of those genes to reduce plant size, induce more color, OR are the Hetherington’s genes so dominate that little if any pumila traits shine through?
But in the case of trianae on trianae, it is all trianae genes. The more genes that one has in their “genetic pallete”, the more room that
Exists to produce different results.

Hybridizers spend years trying to produce specific results. Some are more successful the others. Some hybridizers may make a certain cross because both parents ‘just happen to be in flower’. That is not a plan in my mind.
The more complex the parents are, the wider that the results might be. With trianae and trianae, that is very limiting in comparison.
Trianae by trianae might be like a 4’ 10” mother making a child with her 5’ 9” husband hoping to produce a 6’9” basketball All Star!!!! What are the odds?
Again, if you really like a particular clone of trianae, why not just clone it. Don’t introduce something inferior to produce something superior.

That makes total sense. In summary it's pretty much a gamble but one can try to modify the odds to try to get a higher chance of getting something desirable, but that also means maybe getting a not so desirable result. So you never know. Let's hope the resulting result of this cross is a desirable one to my eyes haha. I am going to also try and look for a concolor variety because I really want one

 

[Tony]

Were they maybe trying to get better shape into concolor lines and then planning to bring the concolor genes back out in the next gen through sib crosses?

 

[Alvaro78]

Were they maybe trying to get better shape into concolor lines and then planning to bring the concolor genes back out in the next gen through sib crosses?

That could be possible honestly but I don't think we will ever know haha. I bought this one from a German nursery but this was part of the import they made from Brazil

 

[Ozpaph]

sometimes people make hybrids 'because they can' and the pictures of the parents arouse enough interest for people to buy the seedlings (economic benefit). Sometimes you get lucky and the best of both. Mostly you dont. Its part of the fun of growing seedlings; the surprise when the bud opens.

 

[Alvaro78]

sometimes people make hybrids 'because they can' and the pictures of the parents arouse enough interest for people to buy the seedlings (economic benefit). Sometimes you get lucky and the best of both. Mostly you dont. Its part of the fun of growing seedlings; the surprise when the bud opens.

Yeah there may not be much logic behind it. I honestly bought it because they were affordable trianae seedlings and I liked how the parents looked. I also had less knowledge than I have now so maybe I would have bought something else, but still as you say I am excited to find out what I get out of it!