The first AQ award in Taiwan

[Candace]

If it's a cross, it's not spicerianum.

Dot, that's exactly what he means.

 

[SlipperFan]

Dot, that's exactly what he means.

Then I don't understand this statement: "...it is also the first AQ given to Paph. spicerianum."

 

[SlipperKing]

I'm always supicous of these flat dorsaled spicies. I have 4 plants in bud with very dark bases and I'll be surprised and delighted if they turnout to be beefy spicies. If they have flat dorsals, well crap, I'll have to buy more from a different source.
They do have clonal named parents, 'Kenta' HCC/AOS and 'Miao Hua' BM/TPS, anyone know anything about these parents?

 

[delphiguy]

amazing display of flowers. thanks for sharing.

 

[Rick]

Then I don't understand this statement: "...it is also the first AQ given to Paph. spicerianum."

I don't get it either.

 

[gonewild]

I think Terry Root produced a batch that looked like this and the judges accused him of it being a hybrid and refused to judge them. I'm not sure but I think they were spices. I just remember seeing a picture of a whole bench that had huge flat dorsals. The rest of his story about it was about his opinion of judging. He seemed to know what his parentage was. waybe these are from his breeding.

 

[SelectOrchids]

I think Terry Root produced a batch that looked like this and the judges accused him of it being a hybrid and refused to judge them. I'm not sure but I think they were spices. I just remember seeing a picture of a whole bench that had huge flat dorsals. The rest of his story about it was about his opinion of judging. He seemed to know what his parentage was. waybe these are from his breeding.

Not at all... Terry Root got as well cheated by buying extrahuge spicerianum way back from a nurseryman in England, Mike T... Even Terry had a fake roth Mt Millais pictured for a couple of years back when he had his website, coming from the same guy. Those extrahuge spicerianum, known in Europe as spicerianum Giganteum are a backcross of a 2n Bruno onto spicerianum, made for pot-plant. The nursery who had that was known as Clements, near Rotterdam. Some more were bought straight by a couple of extremely famous US orchid growers few years ago and sold as spicerianum.

Those are definitely Bruno, I have seen for years that Taiwaneses were selling Bruno as spicerianum, so now they even get an AQ on it. And yes, those AOS judges in their extreme stupidity awarded a batch of Bruno as spicerianum.

The same happens to lawrenceanum hyeanum, which apparently is completely extinct in cultivation - Tradition is an hybrid, and the superbiens album, that are as well progeny of Goultenianum. Add to that Pinnochio, the fake stonei from Taiwan - their growth habit is definitely unlike any stonei I have seen, and the flowers looks a bit different, maybe the stonei album - I start to have big doubts about that one -, some fake insigne, villosum, etc... that makes the whole picture. But for sure those "spicerianum" are hybrids. In Paphs of Taiwan 1 2 3 4 there are several bruno already pictured as spicerianum, so it is not surprising.

 

[SelectOrchids]

I'm always supicous of these flat dorsaled spicies. I have 4 plants in bud with very dark bases and I'll be surprised and delighted if they turnout to be beefy spicies. If they have flat dorsals, well crap, I'll have to buy more from a different source.
They do have clonal named parents, 'Kenta' HCC/AOS and 'Miao Hua' BM/TPS, anyone know anything about these parents?

No, except that it must be MiaO Hua, from Hung Sheng nursery. There is a picture of that cross on Parkside orchids, definitely the same crap as the AQ, maybe exactly the same parents - in Taiwan it is not a problem to sell flasks of the same cross with different parents names, that's why I would never touch flasks of their roths or sands, except 1 or 2 suppliers.

 

[weiyiatosu]

I should have said its a sibling cross between two select spicerianum clones when I made the posting. I apologize for the confusion.

I was fortunate enough to witness the judging when the spicerianum sibling cross was awarded on October 22. I have some words to say regarding earlier comments.

Firstly, all of the judges in Taiwan Paphiopedium Society are very experienced growers and possess extensive knowledge in the field. There are frequent interactions between TPS judges and judges from all over the world (i.e. U.S.A, Japan, and Thailand). The standard of the TPS judging system and quality of the TPS judges should be comparable to others. JOGA gave out at least an FCC and a BM to spicerianum with flatter dorsal.

Secondly, to my knowledge, the seed pods using Burno as a parent are often inviable or produce only very few seedlings. However, the grower has more than twenty thousand seedlings. Hence, it should not a hybrid made of Burno and spicerianum.

Thirdly, the claim that Taiwanese vendors sell Burno as spicerianum is not sound because in Asia, Burno divisions are worth a lot more than spicerianum. Why would they sell Burno as spicerianum for less money?

Lastly, I think it is a little bit illogical to assume it is Bruno hybrids selfings or crossings just because the blooms have flatter dorsal. We all see the improvement in besseae in terms of color, size and form over the years. Why cannot there be an improvement in spicerianum as well?

The harsh words toward TPS judges and the grower all seem a little unfair to me.

 

[aquacorps]

weiyiatosu, I just wanted to make sure they were species. Everyone thinks they everything about spicerianum.

 

[SelectOrchids]

all of the judges in Taiwan Paphiopedium Society are very experienced growers and possess extensive knowledge in the field. There are frequent interactions between TPS judges and judges from all over the world (i.e. U.S.A, Japan, and Thailand). The standard of the TPS judging system and quality of the TPS judges should be comparable to others. JOGA gave out at least an FCC and a BM to spicerianum with flatter dorsal.

No, because in the TPS books, invariably, there are some mislabeled plants, it's like that. There are only a very few experienced growers in the TPS for the Paphiopedilum, and as they live on the trade, they will not comment on any mislabeled plants from their competitor. It is the Taiwanese culture, as you know, because it would make bad face to the competitor, and makes those who comment feel guilty of badmouthing a competitor...

As for others things, Taiwan is quite recent in the Paphiopedilum world. Stuff like the fake spicerianum bred from Bruno, the fake callosum and superbiens album bred from very old plants, were made first well before Taiwaneses had any interest in Paphiopedilum, and a couple well before even Taiwan existed. Only some European and US growers, old timers, know about those things. Lawrenceanum var Hyeanum 'Tradition' would be said to be a 'real' one by many younger judges, but in fact, 'Tradition' came from the Netherlands, from a nursery that had many, many Maudiae selfings, and selfings of selfings. It was picked up once by a guy who though it could well be a lawrenceanum...

And in Taiwan as well, we have the Phalaenopsis tetraspis C-1 and Specios, that are the most blatant scam. A Taiwanese grower published pictures of his breeding of corningiana x tetraspis in the early 90's, then this cross has NEVER been registered, and the same flowers, same cross are now sold as tetraspis C-1...

Same applies for many countries worldwide, it is not a bashing after Taiwan at all, but just to explain clearly that it is not because it is from Taiwan or USA or Europe that it is genuine...

Note that the US or the RHS or Germany, or even Japan sometimes make a lot of mistakes. There are not many individual judges with extensive knowledge in paphiopedilum in fact. Many that know only what they see at a few nurseries, a couple books, and the shows...

arent are often inviable or produce only very few seedlings. However, the grower has more than twenty thousand seedlings. Hence, it should not a hybrid made of Burno and spicerianum.

It is that type of hybrid, indeed, and i have seen fields of Bruno x spicerianum hybrids at Clements nursery in the Netherlands. I know for sure that the Taiwanese bought a lot of those plants under the name of spicerianum some years back.

Bruno 'Model' is not very fertile, being a triploid 3N. The other cultivars of Bruno are, indeed, very fertile, and one of the earlier bases of some complex line breeding.

At the Queen Sirikit show in Bangkok, about 5 years ago, one very famous Taiwanese grower brought a couple hundreds Bruno in bloom for sale... They could match very well those 'spicerianum'.

Thirdly, the claim that Taiwanese vendors sell Burno as spicerianum is not sound because in Asia, Burno divisions are worth a lot more than spicerianum. Why would they sell Burno as spicerianum for less money?

Simply because a SELECTED spicerianum is worth a lot more than Bruno. Bruno is not very expensive in Taiwan, so far in Bangkok the wholesale price was USD3/growth... a "selected" spicerianum will go for 100-500USD/plant, a bit more interesting. And maybe because the breeder of those spicerianum firmly believe that these are genuine spicerianum. Maybe he bought two "very selected" spicerianum for a couple hundreds USD that were fake, or the breeder of the parents of those spicerianums did, and no one realized those were fakes.

Lastly, I think it is a little bit illogical to assume it is Bruno hybrids selfings or crossings just because the blooms have flatter dorsal. We all see the improvement in besseae in terms of color, size and form over the years. Why cannot there be an improvement in spicerianum as well?

Well, because if someone shows to me a besseae with long orange dropping petals of 25 cm, I will not believe it is a linebred besseae, but immediately think about a caudatum hybrid...

Second, there are things that are possible, and some others that are not possible within a species. For spicerianum, there is a semialbum, awarded by the AOS long time ago, I got a purple wild plant, an albino wild plant, I have seen some thousands wild plants in bloom, none with the flat dorsal as well... I know there is another purple flowered plant in Germany too... And I got some selfings and colchicine treated plants i made myself out of the Bostock lineage, which is the spicerianum with the flatter dorsal ever - but the leaves are quite different from those AQ ones...

The variability in color and flat dorsals of those spicerianum clearly show that they are hybrids, that's the problem. Plus I happen to have seen those Bruno crosses before, in the Netherlands, and sold in Taiwan as well...

The harsh words toward TPS judges and the grower all seem a little unfair to me.

It's not harsh words, just the truth that they made a big mistake with those plants.

Another example are those massive esquirolei, such as Taka, etc... they are all VERY FAKE hybrids.

I traced those back to the seller in Germany that supplied Taiwan, Japan... Before I believed that esquirolei Atlas, Taka FCC/AOS were real ones. In fact they are fake, ****** hybrids. The Taiwanese got many, US, Japan, worldwide, of those "mammoth esquirolei". Then I found out that the german supplier was buying those "esquirolei" from Orchideenzentrum Celle in Germany - there was a broken tak in that very expensive esquirolei 'taka' division. I went there, discussed with the owner...

WOW. The guy at Wichmann Orchideen knew very well the gentleman selling those highly selected esquirolei. They looks like esquirolei on steroids, 20cm+ flowers. One even got a GM/WOC at the WOC in Dijon. But this man never bought any esquirolei from Wichmann. He bought...

*
*
*
*
*
*

http://www.orchideen-wichmann.de/ozw/shop/artikel/pflanzen/Paphiopedilum/PA0763PG1Paphiopedilumhirsutissimum_Gold_Paph.Bidborough.php

*
*
*
*
*
BIDBOROUGH x ESQUIROLEI

I got the information that quite a few from that hybrid looks exactly like what could be huge esquirolei, and I have seen quite a few in bloom, cannot tell them apart from those Taka, Atlas, and similar mammoth esquirolei. Because... Taka, Atlas, Dijon, etc... are screened plants of Birborough x esquirolei, an old pot-plant hybrid, period.

I made a chromosome counting - yep I am one of the few to do that on a regular basis... - and esquirolei Taka is 2n=31, Atlas is 2n=29... Confirmed hybrids. I should have done it before, especially when I foudn that Taka was nearly sterile, but I though before it was maybe a triploid. No way, it is an aneuploid, complex hybrid.

As you can see it is not very easy for most of the 'experienced' people even to find out the truth.

Regarding flat charlesworthii, there are quite a few jungle charlesworthii with very flat dorsal, so it is within the range of variability of that species, so everything is fine...

 

[paphioland]

I'm always supicous of these flat dorsaled spicies. I have 4 plants in bud with very dark bases and I'll be surprised and delighted if they turnout to be beefy spicies. If they have flat dorsals, well crap, I'll have to buy more from a different source.
They do have clonal named parents, 'Kenta' HCC/AOS and 'Miao Hua' BM/TPS, anyone know anything about these parents?

how about a flat Charlesworthii

 

[slippertalker]

Then I don't understand this statement: "...it is also the first AQ given to Paph. spicerianum."

AQ's can also be given to species crosses. A good example is Paph rothschildianum (Borneo x Charles E) that the Tonkins created years ago and greatly increased the captive population of that species. AQ's have also been given to other paphs, including acmodontum, wardii, moquettianum, godefroyae, lowii, sukhakulii, bellatulum, henryanum, venustum, fairreanum in the last 15 years or so.

Selective breeding is creating "better" quality species as the best are crossed with the best.

The definition of an AQ is "awarded once to a strain (the result of a mating of specific cultivars) exhibited by a single individual as a group of not less than 12 different clones or the inflorescences thereof, of a raised species or hybrid, which may or may not have been made before, when the result is of sufficient improvement over the former type. " It goes on to say that at least one cultivar has to have a quality award and that the parents need to be defined.

 

[fibre]

Judges -and so do breeders also- prefer big, round and flat Paphiopedilum flowers. A lot of amateurs are following them. I do not, not always.

I like the reflecting dorsal of P. spicerianum very much! I also like wavily petals!

So I ask myself, why there are no complex Paphs bred of species as appletonianum, spicerianum, villosum, tigrinum, gratrixianum, ... with tubular dorsals?
IMO Paphs are not only made to photograph their front side, but to look at them as a three dimensional artwork.

As long as flatnes is a goal in breeding, some will do strange things as seen here in this thrad. Those flat "spicerianums" are not my favorites.

____variatio delectat__________,__fibre_____

 

[slippertalker]

I've heard that opinion before, but the truth is that there is no market for such things. People enjoy well formed flowers, and even in the face of the purists who prefer jungle versions of species, they will almost always purchase the standard that judges and hybridizers prefer.

 

[fibre]

... People enjoy well formed flowers, ...

I prefer well formed flowers too. IMO trumpet-like dorsals are well formed too.

... and even in the face of the purists who prefer jungle versions of species...

Don't misunderstand my post: I don't think, that jungle versions have more beauty. Not at all! I love the modern flat Hybrids, but sometimes they become boaring.


----:wink:--variatio delectat--:wink:-------,--fibre-----

 

[SlipperFan]

Judges -and so do breeders also- prefer big, round and flat Paphiopedilum flowers. A lot of amateurs are following them. I do not, not always.

I like the reflecting dorsal of P. spicerianum very much! I also like wavily petals!

So I ask myself, why there are no complex Paphs bred of species as appletonianum, spicerianum, villosum, tigrinum, gratrixianum, ... with tubular dorsals?
IMO Paphs are not only made to photograph their front side, but to look at them as a three dimensional artwork.

As long as flatnes is a goal in breeding, some will do strange things as seen here in this thrad. Those flat "spicerianums" are not my favorites.

____variatio delectat__________,__fibre_____

I like your thinking. I will have to rethink why I have tended to like flat dorsals, especially since I was a sculptor before I got into photography.

 

[gonewild]

I like your thinking. I will have to rethink why I have tended to like flat dorsals, especially since I was a sculptor before I got into photography.

That is simple.... Flat dorsals are easier to photograph. :rollhappy:

 

[SlipperFan]

That is simple.... Flat dorsals are easier to photograph. :rollhappy:

Actually, that's a very good observation. But I still have 3D eyes, so you'd think I'd have a greater appreciation of the flowers that are more 3D. And I tend to fight with the judges around here that demand roundness as the only valid criteria for awards (slight exaggeration here). So what I'm saying is that I need to take myself to task!

 

[gonewild]

So what I'm saying is that I need to take myself to task!

Who do you think will win?