They're coming.... my first flask.

[masaccio]

I am hard-headed, having been warned seriously against these as my first flask. One of Sam's tigrinum crosses. I would appreciate all the help I can get.

 

[orchid527]

John

I am growing several flasks of his tigrinums. Start them out in sphagnum and use dilute fertilizer in good quality water. I haven't lost a single plant. They just don't grow very fast. I tried a variety of media, but nothing else worked for me. I have them under lights and slightly warmed from beneath. If Sam shipped the flask to you and the leaves start turning yellow in the first few days, spray with systemic fungicide. They can get contaminated when he opens up the flask and it grows while the plants are in transit, especially this time of year. I have some photos, if you are interested. Mike

 

[DrLeslieEe]

John

I am growing several flasks of his tigrinums. Start them out in sphagnum and use dilute fertilizer in good quality water. I haven't lost a single plant. They just don't grow very fast. I tried a variety of media, but nothing else worked for me. I have them under lights and slightly warmed from beneath. If Sam shipped the flask to you and the leaves start turning yellow in the first few days, spray with systemic fungicide. They can get contaminated when he opens up the flask and it grows while the plants are in transit, especially this time of year. I have some photos, if you are interested. Mike

Congrats to Masa for getting this tigrinum flask! A first!

And Mike, please post your experience here please so we can all learn for this difficult species. Thanks!

 

[orchid527]

John

Here is a quick photo of my plants. The four compots on the top are 8 months out of flask. The rest are 3 months out of flask. I realize they have quite a ways to go, but this stage is where the losses can be greatest. Mike

 

[masaccio]

John

Here is a quick photo of my plants. The four compots on the top are 8 months out of flask. The rest are 3 months out of flask. I realize they have quite a ways to go, but this stage is where the losses can be greatest. Mike
View attachment 25873

Very beautiful, Mike. I wanted to ask you - Phred has mentioned specifically not trying to disentangle small plantlets until they gain some size. I thought I would rinse off as much of the agar as possible and then place the mass onto damp sphagnum in covered compot for the time being and just let them be for awhile. Yea or Nay? Thanks!

 

[masaccio]

Congrats to Masa for getting this tigrinum flask! A first!

And Mike, please post your experience here please so we can all learn for this difficult species. Thanks!

Thanks, Doc. I'm pretty excited. Excited as in nervous, that is.

 

[orchid527]

Very beautiful, Mike. I wanted to ask you - Phred has mentioned specifically not trying to disentangle small plantlets until they gain some size. I thought I would rinse off as much of the agar as possible and then place the mass onto damp sphagnum in covered compot for the time being and just let them be for awhile. Yea or Nay? Thanks!

I don't think tangled roots will be a problem. Sam's plants will have healthy roots, but they won't be extensive. Gently wash the medium off and the seedlings will come apart easily. You won't do doing any harm. One flask will produce four 4 inch compots with 6-7 plants per pot. It will be hard to have more than this in one pot. Wet the moss and gently work it around the roots. Holding this plug of moss and plant, add another plant to the outside and cover it with moss. It is cumbersome, but by the time you get to 6-7 plants, they are ready to go into the 4 inch pot. Don't forget to put foam peanuts in the bottom. I put my compots into ziploc bags with a small opening and I increase the size of the opening over a 2-3 week period until the plants are acclimated to the home's lower humidity. You have to check them every day and be prepare to spray them at first sign of fungal infection. About a month into the process, they will be hardened and show signs of new growth. Mike

 

[Phred]

Very beautiful, Mike. I wanted to ask you - Phred has mentioned specifically not trying to disentangle small plantlets until they gain some size. I thought I would rinse off as much of the agar as possible and then place the mass onto damp sphagnum in covered compot for the time being and just let them be for awhile. Yea or Nay? Thanks!

If they separate easily separate them. If you have to mess with them it's better to leave them alone. Mike's compots look great but if each one represents a flask then the smaller number would separate more easily. The plants in the flask photo in your post look like they might separate easily.

 

[masaccio]

If they separate easily separate them. If you have to mess with them it's better to leave them alone. Mike's compots look great but if each one represents a flask then the smaller number would separate more easily. The plants in the flask photo in your post look like they might separate easily.

I don't think tangled roots will be a problem. Sam's plants will have healthy roots, but they won't be extensive. Gently wash the medium off and the seedlings will come apart easily. You won't do doing any harm. One flask will produce four 4 inch compots with 6-7 plants per pot. It will be hard to have more than this in one pot. Wet the moss and gently work it around the roots. Holding this plug of moss and plant, add another plant to the outside and cover it with moss. It is cumbersome, but by the time you get to 6-7 plants, they are ready to go into the 4 inch pot. Don't forget to put foam peanuts in the bottom. I put my compots into ziploc bags with a small opening and I increase the size of the opening over a 2-3 week period until the plants are acclimated to the home's lower humidity. You have to check them every day and be prepare to spray them at first sign of fungal infection. About a month into the process, they will be hardened and show signs of new growth. Mike

I got it. Thanks to both of you. A little common sense, then. At least I'm accustomed to working with sphagnum. Thanks for the reminder about peanuts, I may have skipped this. I've wondered about using peanuts with paphiopedilums at all. They're completely non-absorbant so it seems they would create too much air in the bottom of a pot where root tips are going. But obviously you're using them successfully, so there it is.

 

[masaccio]

This is the setup I find myself with. Four covered 4x4 compots with perforated bottoms and a good supply of sphagnum. All placed on a half-sheet baking pan (humidity tray) which I can heat from the bottom during the day with a heating pad as long as the back doesn't go out. I'd want to put a layer of river rocks and a little water in the baking pan for the compots to rest on), and would want to remove the compot tops at night to aid hardening. A newbie effort, but anything actually wrong? Thank you, fellow paph lovers.

 

[orchid527]

Should work fine. I assume you will turn off heat at night when the tops are off. Is there any way to set the tops on slightly askew so that they just partially ventilated at night? That would be a good transition to being fully open at night. I don't know about you, but my house humidity can be as low as 35%, even with a humidifier on the furnace. A drop from 100% to 35% is a harsh transition and I suspect you will see unnecessary damage to leaves in just a few days. I don't have much confidence in pebble trays. The moisture disperses to quickly. I do like the idea of individual chambers, so that spread of any fungal infection is limited. Also, your timing is really pretty good. With spring just around the corner, you will be getting better results than if you started this at the beginning of winter. Mike

 

[masaccio]

Should work fine. I assume you will turn off heat at night when the tops are off. Is there any way to set the tops on slightly askew so that they just partially ventilated at night? That would be a good transition to being fully open at night. I don't know about you, but my house humidity can be as low as 35%, even with a humidifier on the furnace. A drop from 100% to 35% is a harsh transition and I suspect you will see unnecessary damage to leaves in just a few days. I don't have much confidence in pebble trays. The moisture disperses to quickly. I do like the idea of individual chambers, so that spread of any fungal infection is limited. Also, your timing is really pretty good. With spring just around the corner, you will be getting better results than if you started this at the beginning of winter. Mike

Thanks, Mike. Good idea about leaving the tops just slightly askew - far more sensible. I have a space humidifier in the room that can run all night. I agree about pebble trays not really working to provide humidity. I'm mostly using it as a drip tray and to lift the bottoms of the compots off the flat surface of the pan for air flow. Also, in lieu of a seedling heat mat I have a heating pad for humans that I can put under the pan for a little extra warmth. Depending on the temperature of the pad, I might not want the bottoms of the compots to be resting directly on the bottom of the pan. And come to think of it, in that setup with the heating pad under the pan, a little water in the pan might heat up enough to provide some humidity after all, as well as being an extra buffer against overheating. I'm probably overthinking this.... Thanks for your help!

 

[richgarrison]

You're likely past this point now, but the thing that Holger Perner figured out about inococur helping significantly reduce tigrinum loses was something that sam also swore by... seemed like a good hack to consider...

 

[KateL]

You're likely past this point now, but the thing that Holger Perner figured out about inococur helping significantly reduce tigrinum loses was something that sam also swore by... seemed like a good hack to consider...

Rich, is that a particular product? When I googled I got a company name, which had been bought out/changed. Do you use it with other flasklings or just tigrinums?

 

[masaccio]

You're likely past this point now, but the thing that Holger Perner figured out about inococur helping significantly reduce tigrinum loses was something that sam also swore by... seemed like a good hack to consider...

I'd never heard of it. Thanks for mentioning it. I googled it and apparently, Ray carried it. I went to his website just now and there's something that sounds very similar - Quantum Total Plant Probiotic.

 

[masaccio]

Rich, is that a particular product? When I googled I got a company name, which had been bought out/changed. Do you use it with other flasklings or just tigrinums?

Try Googling Incocur Garden Solution.

 

[masaccio]

I want to try these. They're 6-1/2 x 9 x 2-1/2. Adjustable air vent on the top.

John

Here is a quick photo of my plants. The four compots on the top are 8 months out of flask. The rest are 3 months out of flask. I realize they have quite a ways to go, but this stage is where the losses can be greatest. Mike
View attachment 25873

Hey Mike. I'm wondering why is it this stage when losses are greatest?

 

[masaccio]

Mike, I also have these, with an adjustable air vent at the top. They're 6-1/2 x 9 x 2-1/2. So, I can do the 4" compots, and then put each compot inside one of these contraptions with the air vent. Sounds like a plan.

 

[cnycharles]

Inocucor isn’t available in the us anymore unfortunately. Putting any heat pad directly in contact underneath compote would be a great way to kill them . But something in between that can soak up some heat and release slowly and if possible some kind of thermostat would be good. Could even have a water reservoir directly underneath with an aquarium heater

 

[orchid527]

John

None of these little tigrinums have extensive roots and they grow slowly. So if the roots wither, then the plants lose leaves faster than they can grow them. If you put them into bark right out of the flask, they will wither. Sam commented to me that he was seeing excessive losses after the plants were deflasked. It looks like they need to reach a healthy size before they can go into anything other than moss, but growing them in moss is too tedious to do on his scale. I have been sharing photos of my growing experiments with him. Mike