Tough Orchid Suggestions

[Brian Monk]

There are no outdoor gardens in Florida that I know of (including in South Florida) that utilize orchids in their outdoor landscaping. Again, the native orchids of Florida are either terrestrial and experience a dormancy period; or are epiphytic and exist in very specific microclimates that do not freeze.

The problem is not one or two nights of frost, but a week or more of temperatures below 40; or 1 or more hard freezes in a season.

As far as I know, very few orchids are capable of surviving these conditions. If they were, then there would already be a considerable number of native species present.

 

[cnycharles]

As far as I know, very few orchids are capable of surviving these conditions. If they were, then there would already be a considerable number of native species present.

welll, start thinking bogs there are a good number of plants that grow in the usually continually-moist areas of the south including most of florida

 

[Rick]

There are a couple of guys in our society that grew up in Florida (not sure where quite honestly).

Both of them "naturalized" either some Catt or Vanda hybrids on the trees in their backyards.

One of these gentlemen said he recently visited the house where he grew up and his Vandas where still there and doing fine.

Seems like I've heard a couple of similar tales for south Louisiana.

Next time I see them I'll find out more.

 

[Ernie]

Brian, you're such a killjoy. Still won't stop us from trying.

I can totally see how this weather would confuse the crap out of any tropical/tender perrenial. A couple days at 75 with 57 nights followed by a couple days at 55 with 35 nights, repeat.

 

[Kevin]

There are no outdoor gardens in Florida that I know of (including in South Florida) that utilize orchids in their outdoor landscaping. Again, the native orchids of Florida are either terrestrial and experience a dormancy period; or are epiphytic and exist in very specific microclimates that do not freeze.

The problem is not one or two nights of frost, but a week or more of temperatures below 40; or 1 or more hard freezes in a season.

As far as I know, very few orchids are capable of surviving these conditions. If they were, then there would already be a considerable number of native species present.

Really? I know I'm not an expert, but I was in Florida for a short time in April of '07, and the Fairchild Tropical Gardens had Schomburgkias, Cattleyas, Encyclia tampensis, Cytopodium punctatum, some type of Oncidium, Cymbidium aloifolium, Phalaenopsis (only one plant that I saw), Vanilla and Epidendrum radicans. The only terrestrial I saw was Spathoglottis.

Just some suggestions, Ernie. You could also try Epidendrum nocturnum, which is native. I don't know how much frost Miami and area get, but you could try.

What do you mean by 'very specific microclimates that do not freeze'? Growing on the side of palm tree in full sun with no protection - how is that a microclimate? Encyclia tampensis and Cyrtopodium punctatum seem to like gowing in very exposed areas.

 

[Brian Monk]

By "microclimate" I mean just that: a specific area within an environment that maintains a very specific range of conditions that are significantly different from the average cimactic conditions of the same area. It is a common concept, not my own, and most growers use microclimactic conditions whether they know it or not. It explains why some plants just do better in "that spot." Have you seen the E. tampensis and Cyrt. puncatum in situ here in S. Florida? I have. They grow in protected areas, under heavy tree canopy, and often close to water. Al of these things contribute to the prevention of freezing temperatures that might permanently destroy the plant. There are plants that manage to colonize areas away from these protected spots. And every half-century or so, when temperatures drop to freezing, these plants are destroyed. Those growing in slighly more protected areas are damaged, but survive. Mother nature is a *****.

I am not trying to be a kill-joy. Really. I think the idea of an effortless garden of orchids that require no care beyond what mother nature offers is a fantastic concept. But the orchids that grow outdoors in Florida without assistance from humans are very limited in either growth habit or microclimate. Even the bog plants in south Florida experience a seasonal dormancy, though this has more to do with moisture than temperature. The plants that are grown outside at Fairchild are either mobile or covered during harsh weather. The cold we are currently experiencing has no been seen in south Florida for over a century. It froze in places that never typically drop below 50. It froze for several days in a row in areas that commonly experience only one or two days of these temps in a year. Last year, we had sub-40 degrees at my grow area for 12 days in a row. In a protected area.

I am not trying to discourage anyone, but just trying to advise Ernie that his plant choices should be highly discriminating, and that there is probably no perfect solution available. And again, if the single-most highly adapted and diverse group of flowering plants on the planet has not colonized central Florida, and the trees there don't drip with fantastic and colorful flowers of all orchid forms, then there is a reason.

 

[Kevin]

I understand what you are saying, and I know what the deffinition of microclimate is. I have seen E. tampensis and C. punctatum in the wild, in a variety of different habitats. So, these two species seem to be highly variable and not too specific in their requirements.

Regarding the hardiness of Florida natives, yes, if an area gets extreme cold, like once every hundred years, and the plants die, then they are not trully hardy. I think that the plants listed as native in Florida, and elsewhere in North America, have gone through enough harsh years, and been documented by people, that we can say they are hardy to that area. The plants that are so specialized in that they need very specific conditions are still hardy, but only in their habitat. That is where they grow, and they grow there for a reason. If that area happens to be 'micro', then so be it. Not all species have wide ranges.

I didn't understand why you said that there are no gardens in Florida that utilize orchids in their landscaping. If it is true that the epiphytes are covered for the winter, then okay, but that can also be done at home, so no reason not to grow them. Are you sure that the gardens cover these species? Looking at the photo I took of the Cymbidioum aloifolium sitting in a crotch of a tree, completely surrounded by branches, I would wonder how that would ever be protected - or maybe the tree is protecting it? If so, it is then possible to grow orchids permanently outside, in the right spot. It would be very interesting to find out how many of the naturalized orchids that I saw there survived this recent freeze. That would add a lot to this discussion. As any gardener knows, you need to place a plant in the right spot and the righ conditions in order for it to thrive.

As to why central Florida is not dripping with colourful orchids, we have no chance of answering. Epidendrum magnoliae grows all the way up to North Carolina, if I'm not mistaken. Why just one species? Why aren't there 10s or hundreds of species that can handle the same conditions native to that area? That's just the way they were created. We can't answer the 'why'.

 

[Kevin]

Ernie - you said you have a small pond. Have you thought of Calopogon? What about Bletia? Also, if there are some epiphytes that need higher humidity, maybe you could put a large dead branch or stump or something upright in the pond, and put the epiphytes on that? I know you are not specified on natives, but those are usually the best bet for hardiness. Take a look at this site:http://www.flnativeorchids.com/ The Platantheras are stunning, as well as the Sacoila. Then there's Habeneria, Pogonia and Spiranthes. I didn't look where you could buy them, but just some ideas. It would be cool to add some pitcher plants to the pond too, and maybe some Venus Fly Traps. Might be a little warm for them down there, but you can try. Hey, what's gardening without experimentation and trial and error? If someone says 'you can't grow that here', plant more of them and prove them wrong! Also, we have to think about climate change, and maybe some plants that we think won't last long, might infact be very hardy in the years to come.

 

[Ernie]

Wo there. Easy guys.

Yes, there are microclimates in every yard. Frost has yet to get closer than three feet from my house- it's warmer by the house, that's a microclimate. Bromeliads on the southeast side of a palm are in great shape even through a handful of nights just at/below freezing, those on the exact opposite side (northwest) got lots of cold wind and are cold-fried (not sunburnt), that's two microclimates within a couple feet of each other...

Anyway, let's take this back to the original brainstorming of plants you'd try if you're crazy like me. I'll pick and choose from the list, will try some things, and will try to post updates.

I'm sure lots of these will need covered or brought in on cold nights, that's okay too.

Have some Venus flytraps and they are doing well. Only lost one (might come back?)- the Red Dragon, damn, it's always the coolest ones!

As far as Brian's diversity question, I think of this all the time down here. We see pix from tropical America of branches covered with loads of orchids, like Pleurothallids etc. Then here in Fl you see a tree loaded up similarly, but with only one or two species of Bromeliad (usually Tillandsias). The true tropics (we're in the subtropics) drive diversity.

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

Epidendrum magnoliae is the current name for E. conopseum.

 

[Ernie]

Epidendrum magnoliae is the current name for E. conopseum.

Who cares, it's ugly. :rollhappy: (and just for saying that, it'll be the only thing that will live) Kidding, thanks! Sheesh, we're gonna need a big dog. People will be scaling our fence.

 

[Kevin]

Wo there. Easy guys.

Yes, there are microclimates in every yard. Frost has yet to get closer than three feet from my house- it's warmer by the house, that's a microclimate. Bromeliads on the southeast side of a palm are in great shape even through a handful of nights just at/below freezing, those on the exact opposite side (northwest) got lots of cold wind and are cold-fried (not sunburnt), that's two microclimates within a couple feet of each other...

Anyway, let's take this back to the original brainstorming of plants you'd try if you're crazy like me. I'll pick and choose from the list, will try some things, and will try to post updates.

I'm sure lots of these will need covered or brought in on cold nights, that's okay too.

Have some Venus flytraps and they are doing well. Only lost one (might come back?)- the Red Dragon, damn, it's always the coolest ones!

As far as Brian's diversity question, I think of this all the time down here. We see pix from tropical America of branches covered with loads of orchids, like Pleurothallids etc. Then here in Fl you see a tree loaded up similarly, but with only one or two species of Bromeliad (usually Tillandsias). The true tropics (we're in the subtropics) drive diversity.

Did I come across as too abrasive? Sorry. Anyway, I wish you good luck in your endeavour. It would be cool to find out if anyone or any garden has successfully overwintered which species for how many years in your area. I never thought that the opposite side of a Palm tree could have that much difference in conditions to be life-or-death. Very cool. Another suggestion to look is the (former) AOS headquarters gardens. I think they had (or still have, whoever owns it now, if it has been sold already) quite a bit growing outside. If your plants should die in a severe winter, say every 20 or 30 years, that's still 20 or 30 years that you have had them, so I say go for it! That's called zone-pushing, and every gardener has done it (well, most, anyway). Some people here have tried Catalpa without protection, but they freeze to the ground each winter. Still, in a mild winter, they will get to a good size. If we start getting milder winters, who knows, they might just be fully hardy, and then, the people who have had them for years will then have mature trees! Very cool to expertiment like that.

Cool to hear you have VFT's doing well! You should try some Sarracenia, then. Some are native to central and northen Florida. We look forward to your pics!

 

[Ernie]

Was gonna do Sarracenias, but time ran out before our "winter" set in. Eventhough it's mild, it's still a crappy time to plant newbies. Saw fbrems Sar bog and fell in love with it. We'll see...

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

I've been able to keep venus fly traps alive on Long Island (except Red Dragon, of course). They survive the winter well enough...its the summer heat that does them in.

 

[Ernie]

I've been able to keep venus fly traps alive on Long Island (except Red Dragon, of course). They survive the winter well enough...its the summer heat that does them in.

I was surprised how well they did this summer here. We made these Logan's plants at his request and he had to take care of them. They are all potted individually in NZ sphag and he'd dunk them in the pond each day if they didn't get rained on, and we keep a shallow (maybe 1/2") water pool beneath each (a trimmed down pastic cup for each). They are in full sun. We do have great humidity (plant-wise at least) in summer.

 

[Kevin]

I've been able to keep venus fly traps alive on Long Island (except Red Dragon, of course). They survive the winter well enough...its the summer heat that does them in.

That seems odd. They are native to North Carolina, and have naturalized (or have been planted) as far south as the Florida panhandle. Seems it would be much hotter there than on Long island, but maybe not. Perhaps yours are not wet enough?

 

[Kevin]

I was surprised how well they did this summer here. We made these Logan's plants at his request and he had to take care of them. They are all potted individually in NZ sphag and he'd dunk them in the pond each day if they didn't get rained on, and we keep a shallow (maybe 1/2") water pool beneath each (a trimmed down pastic cup for each). They are in full sun. We do have great humidity (plant-wise at least) in summer.

Try planting them on the edge of the pond. Make an area with pure peat and washed sand, so that there are not nutrients or minerals in the mix. Have it right on the edge of the pond so it stays wet. What is the water quality of the pond? It needs to be pretty pure for them to survive.

 

[Lanmark]

Others have already suggested these, but I'll suggest them again: Encyclia tampensis and Epidendrum radicans. They may suffer some minimal damage from the cold, but established plants should continue to thrive afterward. I really like Epi stamfordianum too, but it may well need protection on really cold nights. Plumerias (obviously these are not orchids) should do well in large planters and brought in for storage in a sheltered area during dormancy in colder months. Junglejacksplumeria.com has an awesome mini (yes a mini!) which would do well grown in this manner. I am also partial to Jasminum humile 'Revolutum' but there are other jasmines which are probably more suitable to your area. Eugenia uniflora is another shrub I particularly enjoy. Top Tropicals may have improved varieties available for sale from time to time. There are so many orchids, vines, trees, shrubs, annuals and perennials to choose from when gardening in Florida that it becomes overwhelming! I miss living there...

 

[Rick]

And again, if the single-most highly adapted and diverse group of flowering plants on the planet has not colonized central Florida, and the trees there don't drip with fantastic and colorful flowers of all orchid forms, then there is a reason.

The pythons and boas knocked the epiphytes out of the trees, which were then promptly eaten by the pacu and hypostomus catfish in the streams.oke:oke:

I've done some work around Plant City, and the local streams are infested with tropical exotics. I was actually pretty surprised about the general lack of trees except in very old neighborhoods. I did think it pretty cool to see the mosses hanging from what trees were around, and all the Caribbean anole species scampering around.

It's not Equatorial, but I'm sure you'll get something to adapt.

On the other hand what is native for the area? Are there any options to landscape with natives ( or cultivars of natives)?

Some places have been so overrun and developed its hard to tell anymore.

 

[Eric Muehlbauer]

I keep my Venus Fly Traps along with Sarracenia's in a "bog"...a laundry bin sunk into the ground, filled with sand and sphagnum. Its probably dryness rather than heat that does them in...my older bogs dry out to much now. But they do survive winter well.