Why are there not more Complex Paph crossed with Rothschildianum or Sanderianum?

[Nelson Wong]

I just have a question. I always see lots of complex paphs, primary hybrids with roths or other maudiae types. But there are rarely any complex paphs hybridized with rothschildianum or roth primary hybrids.

Is there a reason why breeders do not hybridize complex paphs with multifloral paphs or their primary hybrids?

This is just a novice's dumb curiosity

 

[littlefrog]

Actually there are lots of crosses, just not lots of plants. Takes forever to bloom them, a high percentage of seedlings never bloom, and sometimes you get maybe half a dozen plants out of cross, if you get them at all...

No reason not to try. But you won't see them for sale very much. I'm always tinkering with weird crosses like that but on the very small chance I get any seedlings I am too invested to sell them. I'd rather bloom them out. And that might take longer than I have.

 

[Justin]

Sand tends to create monstrosities.

And as noted, intersectional hybrids with roth can take 20 years to bloom or never bloom. How often do you see Paph Delrosi flower?

 

[Nelson Wong]

Sand tends to create monstrosities.

And as noted, intersectional hybrids with roth can take 20 years to bloom or never bloom. How often do you see Paph Delrosi flower?

When you say Sanderianum create monstrosities - what do you mean by that? Good or bad? I am just curious.

I have a paph delrosi and dollgoldii, and they usually bloom every year and a half once the growth matures. Maybe it is the breeding that made it easier to bloom?

What makes intersectional hybrids difficult to bloom or take a long time to grow? Is it just because they are from two different genus of paph?

 

[Justin]

When you say Sanderianum create monstrosities - what do you mean by that? Good or bad? I am just curious.

I have a paph delrosi and dollgoldii, and they usually bloom every year and a half once the growth matures. Maybe it is the breeding that made it easier to bloom?

What makes intersectional hybrids difficult to bloom or take a long time to grow? Is it just because they are from two different genus of paph?

I glad your roth hybrids bloom well! It is the subgenus level where crosses can be stubborn bloomers (e.g., Polyantha x Parvisepalum).

And I am just not a fan of most sand hybrids. They tend to have poor form and washed-out color.

 

[big923cattleya]

You answered your own question, really!
Just because they are both Paphiopedilums, intersectional hybrids are not really as compatible as you seem to think that they are.
Sanderianum produces hybrids with a great deal of form issues. Again, a long petaled Paph. Crossed on to another parent doesn’t mean all of the children will be beautiful!
Plus what Rob says, I have heard myself a few times. Very low seed counts producing fewer seedlings. Instead of raising a few hundred hundred seedlings, it could be a couple of dozen. And I think or I suspect that intersectional hybrids might be slow growers, very shy bloomers. So if you have a couple that bloom often, treasure them.
AND if a hybridizer gets a few seedlings, they may want to grow them all to maturity before parting with a few. Not everyone is breeding Paphs as a way to instant wealth! In fact wealth might not enter into the equation at all.
I guess to a large degree, we have to learn to be happy with what comes down the road. We as hobby growers do not control the seedling market, the genetics might have the real control.

About 30 years ago, I picked up a compot of Del Rosi. 9 seedlings. All matured. All grew very slowly. A few died. Not a single one ever flowered for me!! That says a lot right there.

 

[littlefrog]

AND if a hybridizer gets a few seedlings, they may want to grow them all to maturity before parting with a few. Not everyone is breeding Paphs as a way to instant wealth! In fact wealth might not enter into the equation at all.
I guess to a large degree, we have to learn to be happy with what comes down the road. We as hobby growers do not control the seedling market, the genetics might have the real control.

I'm certainly not in it for the wealth... Pretty much works the opposite way,

 

[big923cattleya]

I hear you Froggie! I guess I can't think of anyone making a fortune selling orchids or making hybrids. More like a labor of love.

 

[tnyr5]

They're farther apart genetically than it seems. Creating a hybrid between Hellas and rothschildianum, for example, is like crossing a complex Odont to a Brassia. It might work, but it probably won't work the way you think. You might get even less than a dozen to germinate, often only one or two. If it's nice, that's not a problem, IF you can mericlone, HUGE problem if you can't. On top of that, they're often sterile: sometimes only pollen sterile, rarely pod sterile, usually completely sterile. That's a major problem, because it takes away most of the breeder's tools (sib crosses, back crosses) to get to the grail: a multifloral complex with four or five colorful, big-round-flat flowers. This is unlikely to happen in our lifetimes.
Sometimes you get cool things, though, like a recent cross I saw on Facebook of (Pacific Shamrock x rothschildianum) x rothschildianum. Don't be surprised if this is the only plant they have:

 

[Nelson Wong]

They're farther apart genetically than it seems. Creating a hybrid between Hellas and rothschildianum, for example, is like crossing a complex Odont to a Brassia. It might work, but it probably won't work the way you think. You might get even less than a dozen to germinate, often only one or two. If it's nice, that's not a problem, IF you can mericlone, HUGE problem if you can't. On top of that, they're often sterile: sometimes only pollen sterile, rarely pod sterile, usually completely sterile. That's a major problem, because it takes away most of the breeder's tools (sib crosses, back crosses) to get to the grail: a multifloral complex with four or five colorful, big-round-flat flowers. This is unlikely to happen in our lifetimes.
Sometimes you get cool things, though, like a recent cross I saw on Facebook of (Pacific Shamrock x rothschildianum) x rothschildianum. Don't be surprised if this is the only plant they have: View attachment 47330

Thank you for the explanation. I actually saw an abomination of a flower that Rob posted of a lantha stage. I am guessing that is the crazy flowers that ppl are talking about

 

[emydura]

Thank you for the explanation. I actually saw an abomination of a flower that Rob posted of a lantha stage. I am guessing that is the crazy flowers that ppl are talking about

Yes, you certainly increase the chances of deformed flowers. But a nice Iantha Stage is one of the more spectacular Roth cross sectional hybrids.

 

[Ross]

A few years back, I was looking at Grace Day (bellatulum X Cerritos) hybrids and came across Paph Heaven's Gate (Grace Day X rothschildianum). It was made by Orchids Royale and received 5 flower quality awards on three different plants. One cultivar, Mem. Louise Weltz, Grown by Bob Weltz, initially received an AM/AOS and S/CSA. The same plant was later upgraded to FCC on a later flowering. My thought was that being half Brachy gave Grace Day a better chance to produce good flowers with roth, given the success of straight Brachypetalums when crossed with rothschildianum. With that in mind, I crossed Paph Wharton Sinkler (Adilene Bobadilla X Skip Bartlett) with rothchildianum. Skip Bartlett is half godefroyae and a smaller part niveum. I got some production with maybe a dozen or two plants that survived. I have since sold a few to innocent bystanders. It's too early to see results, but some are continuing to grow. The cross is obviously not commercially viable. It may never bloom and even if it does, the flowers may turn out to be deformed. Why did I do the cross? Curiosity, I suppose.

 

[jtrmd]

I had a Paph. Quasar (Paph. rothschildianum x Paph. Macabre) that got awarded. Never had any blooming issues with it. Bloomed better and more reliable than my Iantha Stage. But Harold Koopowitz from OZ was a pain in the arse. When it came to even getting it to flower.

 

[Ross]

I thin

I had a Paph. Quasar (Paph. rothschildianum x Paph. Macabre) that got awarded. Never had any blooming issues with it. Bloomed better and more reliable than my Iantha Stage. But Harold Koopowitz from OZ was a pain in the arse. When it came to even getting it to flower.

I think that rothschildianum crossed with hybrids from the Barbata group are a bit more successful than those from standard complex hybrids made predominantly from the Paphiopedilum subgenus which includes insigne, spicerianum, villosum, etc.

 

[ORG]

You can find some of these hybrids in the book Dankopedilum. Hybrids which were created in the nursery Royal Orchids in Germany. The owner Hilmar Doll and his gardener Günther Dankmeyer produced really a lot of them. Here some examples

Rene-Doll - rothschildianum_x_Winston-Churchill
Dollomite - rothschildianum_x_Hellas
Pacific-Roth rothschildianum_x_Pacific-Ocean
Mem. Artur Elle - rothschildianum_x_Mildred Hunter