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Stone

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The short sightedness of our 'leaders' never ceases to amaze me. Their one and only solution to any and every problem is growth. economy down....growth, unemployment up....growth, you name it, their hot tip.....more growth. When is someone (world leader) going to have the guts to say: ''There's just too many $@^^%* people and we need to stop!!''

Growth is the disease not the cure. If we don't stop growing we will end up living like rats. (7 billion and counting)

( Sorry, just listened to another long winded speech about growth from our esteemed treasurer )
 
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Damn! You and I are on the same wavelength.

"Alternative" energy systems - intended to "save" our ***** - DON'T.

Everything is an energy balance. Altamont Pass in California, falls on the ridge that separates the cool, moist coastal area from the arid interior.. The cool, dense air passing over the ridge is the ideal force for driving windmills, so thousands have been erected, generating megawatt after megawatt of power.

unfortunately, nobody bothered to think about the fact that the trapping of the energy by the windmills has extracted all of the energy out of the air stream, and that moist air is no longer being delivered to the valley beyond. What used to be reasonably rich agricultural land is now a desert.

When you turn on the lights of your car, you actually get less gas mileage than you do if you don't have the lights on. The decrease may be infinitesimal therefore unknown-or at least undetected-but it is real.

We erect millions of square meters of solar cells. At solar flux is no longer reaching the earth, even if it is a desert environment, but do we have any idea what that is doing to the ecology of the earth?.

The simple fact is that our entire ecology is a giant energy balance, and we're doing everything we can to throw it off kilter.

Population control really is the only cure to our problems.
 
Ditto. I talk with my kids about this all the time. There will eventually be a maximum capacitry. Have we already reached it?
 
Ditto. I talk with my kids about this all the time. There will eventually be a maximum capacitry. Have we already reached it?

Yes we reached it a long time ago I think, we are over the hill and sliding down the other side. On the other hand humans are capable of living and surviving like cockroaches if they have to.( if you call that living )
 
Stone: I agree too. Problem is, it really doesn't matter, because we have already gone too far in destroying the planet. Any bit of 'help' we try to give is futile. Sorry to say it, but unfortunately it is true.
 
Let's start with 1 child per couple world wide. No ifs or buts (from now on that is---I don't think we should start culling just yet:rollhappy:

This is good idea for 1 child /couple.. Culling is already being done by nature!! tornadoes, earthquakes, landslides,& others natural disasters..

We loose approx. 70,000 acres of rainforest aday.. We will eventually kill everything!!
 
I don't entirely disagree with you all but I don't think it's so simple. Human evolution creates and is driven by our modification of ecological factors affecting carrying capacity (eg the Green Revolution). Increased local carrying capacity creates opportunity for higher population and higher cultural density. Science and innovation are to some extent a function of cultural density and in turn drive further advances in ecological techs. Because carrying capacity of human ecologies is modified by technology it doesn't necessarily get 'spent' at a fixed rate (or at all) relative to population growth. By the same token, bad stewardship can decrease net carrying capacity even if population also decreases, so just getting rid of people won't solve our problems. Does any of this make sense? :confused:
 
There's several aspects to carrying capacity. Food, shelter, waste products, psychology/behavior.

Not everyone is made to live elbow to elbow and be happy about it.

You can pack a bunch of rats in a cage and give them unlimited food, but they will end up drowning in there own waste, or going crazy and killing themselves. So which carrying capacity are you concerned with?

Humans are supposed to be smarter than the rest of God's creatures, but I'm still looking for a sign that we are (besides are ability to fly to the moon, or build a REALLY BIG bomb).

So insurance isn't supposed to pay for birth control, but will pay for viagra:sob::sob::sob:

I'm still waiting for that sign of true intelligence.
 
We erect millions of square meters of solar cells. At solar flux is no longer reaching the earth, even if it is a desert environment, but do we have any idea what that is doing to the ecology of the earth?.

Population control really is the only cure to our problems.

You know there's been great proposals to put solar panels on top of warehouse roofs in industrial sectors. There's no "ecology" to speak of, no endangered species, and the grid to hook up to is just a few feet away. No need to run a giant corridor for hundreds of miles from the desert.

Problem is someone else already owns the rooftops, and the utilities loose their monopoly (and profit) on power production/sales when they don't own the source of production.

Big oil is no better. There are 500,000 wells in the continental US and 50,000 in the Gulf. Most of them are capped, and only pumped when the price of oil gets about $120 per barrel. Drilling and capping will never bring down the price of oil if you don't actually pull any out of the ground. But drilling is a taxpayer subsidized activity, so that's why you hear the lie about "drill baby drill".
 
I think the right word to describe what we need is : maturation...
Growth is another thing and it does not mean / lead to better things...!

I think that we are where we are because everyone of us just thought of themselves and only... almost noone cares for the fellow human being or "roomate" creature and only cares how to please their own desires, wishes, needs...

Who did ever thanked mother earth, the home of us all, for letting us live here (we take it for granded, but the only sure thing in our life is that we all going to die one day...lol...nothing else is certain), for suffering and bearing all of our immature acts...who ever tried to do something in favour of her (even reduce their garbage for a day, knowing it is done in favour earth herself).... All we do is punching holes, scratching off & altering her "skin" surace (aka landscapes) indiscrimitatelly...bla bla bla... All we think of her is as a garbage can...throwing more and more of our garbage, either material or mental...

Who did ever felt thankful even for a whole day about earth? I didn't... :(

It is all about I, I, I, I or we, we, we, we...!!! There is no us.... :(

But things are changing....there seems to be a will for change, but everyone is reluctant to make the step.... we need a trigger... or someone that will pull the trigger.... we will have to wait...lol...

Oh, and please do not talk about science and tech...these are tools...!!! It is us who should change, not the tools.....!!! OMG!!! :p
 
I don't entirely disagree with you all but I don't think it's so simple. Human evolution creates and is driven by our modification of ecological factors affecting carrying capacity (eg the Green Revolution). Increased local carrying capacity creates opportunity for higher population and higher cultural density. Science and innovation are to some extent a function of cultural density and in turn drive further advances in ecological techs. Because carrying capacity of human ecologies is modified by technology it doesn't necessarily get 'spent' at a fixed rate (or at all) relative to population growth. By the same token, bad stewardship can decrease net carrying capacity even if population also decreases, so just getting rid of people won't solve our problems. Does any of this make sense? :confused:

I see no technology that will be able to deal with the coming demand for resouces from China and India just to name two. Everyone there is going to want a new car and a plasma TV and everything else the West can offer and no one really has the right to deny it.
If this happens in the next 20 years or so, what sort of pressure will be put on an evironment already on the brink of collapse? The sea is running out of fish NOW. How will tech remedy that? No more fishing?, well we know that won't happen. Indonesian fishermen are constantly entering Oz waters and taking their chance. No law will stop it.
Tech is not keeping up with the population explosion. In fact in many ways I think its hindering the natural order of things. Take the on-going African famine. Some people in Africa and elsewhere are saying the very reason for the never-ending starvation there, is because of well-intentioned humanitarian assistance from the west. ie: they're getting just enough food stay alive and procreate and produce the next generation of starving kids. So are we helping them or perpetuating the problem?
The first Australians lived and thrived in harmony with their environment for more than 40.000 years. What we need is someone to design a system where we can live and enjoy life for the next 40.000. Not much to ask?:p
 
One more thing before I stop dribbling. Another (modern?) way to look at it:
The Earth will be destroyed by the Sun in the next 10 billion years??. All of Earth's life and history will be gone. So does it really matter if it ends now or then in the great scheme of things? Every man for himself? :evil::evil::evil:
 
My parents seem relieved that their time on earth is short (they are very old now), and this is how I am beginning to feel as well. Get me the heck outta here! This place has become the Planet of the Humans. It isn't pretty, and I hardly recognize it anymore. :sob:
 
You know there's been great proposals to put solar panels on top of warehouse roofs in industrial sectors. There's no "ecology" to speak of, no endangered species, and the grid to hook up to is just a few feet away. No need to run a giant corridor for hundreds of miles from the desert.

THAT is where the solar arrays SHOULD be.

By the way, I am NOT the one who suggested limiting offspring, as Tom's (apparently poorly edited) "quote" suggests.
 
I'm proud to say I have created no offspring, and I shall not do so in the future. I've had my hands full helping to raise my late sister's five children over the past nine years. Five are more than enough, too many really, and I am pleased with how they've turned out for the most part. Two are in graduate school, one in community college, and two are in high school now, one of whom will graduate this spring. None of them have procreated yet. I'm cautiously hopeful. :p
 
I see no technology that will be able to deal with the coming demand for resouces from China and India just to name two. Everyone there is going to want a new car and a plasma TV and everything else the West can offer and no one really has the right to deny it.
If this happens in the next 20 years or so, what sort of pressure will be put on an evironment already on the brink of collapse? The sea is running out of fish NOW. How will tech remedy that? No more fishing?, well we know that won't happen. Indonesian fishermen are constantly entering Oz waters and taking their chance. No law will stop it.
Tech is not keeping up with the population explosion. In fact in many ways I think its hindering the natural order of things. Take the on-going African famine. Some people in Africa and elsewhere are saying the very reason for the never-ending starvation there, is because of well-intentioned humanitarian assistance from the west. ie: they're getting just enough food stay alive and procreate and produce the next generation of starving kids. So are we helping them or perpetuating the problem?
The first Australians lived and thrived in harmony with their environment for more than 40.000 years. What we need is someone to design a system where we can live and enjoy life for the next 40.000. Not much to ask?:p

Well, the thing about technological evolution is that it potentially alters our abilities/modes of interaction in ways transcendent to our 'original' biology, and likewise in ways transcendent to current technological states. Which means that we won't necessarily see change coming simply because it's outside of what we already recognize as possible or likely.

You're right that unsupported food inputs to a human ecology can lead to nasty boom and bust cycles, but this is as true of New York City or Sydney as it is of Somalia. The difference is that these developed places have the social and organizational structures (technologies) in place to coordinate and sustain their own food inputs from outside. There are a lot of geopolitical reasons why certain regions do or don't have such structures in place, so suggesting that letting people starve for want of this is somehow more 'natural' than continuing to feed them or helping to develop sustainability structures isn't entirely accurate IMHO.

I also take exception to the idea that Australian aborigines, or any indigenous people, lived in 'harmony' with their surroundings to any great extent. Any human population causes ecological change/disruption/destruction when it first enters an area, as does any other invasive terraformer or top predator. The best that can be said is that some societies live in relative equilibrium with their broader ecologies; these are typically not equilibria of choice but rather of necessity. Once techs are gained that allow transcendence or expansion of some of the basic ecological constraints eg local food availability, things almost always re-equilibriate unless there are sociocultural techs constraining this in some way.

@biothanasis: I'm not talking about technology in the narrow sense of gadgets and gizmos, but in the broad sense of any human tool (physical, conceptual, whatever) not intrinsically present in all humans from birth. This includes language, art, religion, sociopolitics, in addition to computers, GMO, etc. Our biology is so irrevocably intertwined and grafted with technology at this point that anything you say is impossible for technology to achieve is implicitly also humanly impossible, though we may have human capacities (eg making babies) that aren't YET possible via technological means. Technology (ie the ability, by any means, to graft and modify capacities of self and other) is what makes us human.

Lest anyone mistake me for an unalloyed technology Pollyanna, I'm not. I don't think we necessarily WILL solve our current problems through better technology, just that we CAN and MIGHT. Ecological carrying capacity isn't a fixed value anymore than human techno capacity is, and I think talking as if population control will solve everything (or even anything) is not only simplistic but also quickly gets into inhumane territory.

You all feel free to disagree with me now, I gotta get back to work...
 
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