Anyone grow hoya?

[Lance Birk]

The Lorax,

We can disagree on many things, if you like, but I see no good reason to leave new species or desirable plants of any species out in the jungle to die. Slash and burn agriculture destroys more plant material on a yearly basis than collectors have since their existence. Stories you read about greedy collectors, plant "tramplers" and developers, etc. are mostly just that. They are based on untruths and exaggeration and are written by people who have no experience in jungle travel...except in one or two cases like Cribb and Averyanov. If you look at how man is now propagating plant material there is no argument that he is capable of producing them in massive quantities. Seems to me there's a disconnect here.

Your quote about subsequent visits to previously known species habitat areas which reveal their disappearance or great reduction is usually true. I have seen very large areas of forests cut down for oil palm production in Malaysia. I have seen large areas in Indonesia cut and burned for clove production, mostly for cigarettes. I have seen countless forested areas cut for timber and cattle grazing all over the world. And I have heard and read stories of plant collectors who go into an area, collect all they can find and then burn the area. Averyanov's description of plant collecting in Vietnam is real, but I'll bet you that I could go back into those "devastated" areas right now and find plenty of those "extinct" paphiopedilums. This is because those paphs grow on land that is unsuitable for food production, and because it is not possible to eradicate anything without a massive effort over a very long time, i.e., slash and burn.

The big problem is that forests are being destroyed for food production by native farmers who need to feed their families. I suggest you read the last two chapters in my paph book if you would like to know the real truth, from someone who has actually been there. I doubt that you will like what I wrote and you might not even believe it, but that is your choice.

As I recall, Ted Green told me that his practice is to remove a few growths from plants he collects, and he leaves most of the plant in place. In any case, I'm quite certain that any plant you receive from him is correctly labeled. The quote from the second URL was that species in captivity are frequently being muddied by careless, or even willful mis-labeling and crossing. We see it in orchids often, especially with paphs, ...just look at this forum for a good example. Incidentally, I know very little about hoyas and I don't know if they are legal to collect or not. It wouldn't surprise me a bit if they were suddenly placed under CITES control.

Leo,

Glad to hear there remains some "serious" debates in other plant communities........we shouldn't just keep it all in orchids, now should we? David Liddle sounds like the kind we need more of in the plant world. Incidentally, I collected a then, recently discovered new species of Hoya in the north of Sulawesi in 1978, that a friend in Manila paid a bucket of money for a couple of canes of. I found them by the tree full. I learned later the place was in clove production.


We have a very serious problem with species orchids these days, and I see that it is not entirely restricted to just orchids. In the absence of verifiable identifications for plant species, in particular, collected plants from known locations, it becomes nearly impossible to know which plants are 'good' species anymore..................."Huston, we have a problem."

 

[NYEric]

Interesting thread. I have been avoiding looking at this because I don't know Hoya from Goya. Hope you find what you seek TheLorax. E.

Hahaha, after I wickopediaed it turns out I have one growing acroos the floor!

 

[TheLorax]

"The big problem is that forests are being destroyed for food production by native farmers who need to feed their families. I suggest you read the last two chapters in my paph book if you would like to know the real truth, from someone who has actually been there. I doubt that you will like what I wrote and you might not even believe it, but that is your choice." Perhaps I will take you up on reading the last two chapters of your book right after I finish reading Cribb’s books and then I really need to get to Tullock’s book. I was anxiously looking forward to reading about the amazing diversity of species orchids that you collected and studied from Brazil, Columbia, and Peru but I could easily skip to the last two chapters.

I've traveled quite a bit and I have been to many of these countries to include the Philippines (haven't been to Viet Nam) and although there is an element of truth to what you say, I don't believe it is the real or rather the whole truth as you would have others believe... from someone who has actually been there also. (wish I knew how to insert that yellow smiley poking the blue smiley right about now)

For what it's worth, the site he returned to didn't exactly read as if "slash and burn" agricultural practices occurred there. At least to me it didn’t read that way.

Unless the heavy equipment is ready to roll, I see many reasons to leave new species or desirable plants of any species out in the jungle. It's arrogance in my humble opinion to assume that every new or desirable plant of any species out in the jungle is going to die sooner or later anyway.

"Incidentally, I collected a then, recently discovered new species of Hoya in the north of Sulawesi in 1978, that a friend in Manila paid a bucket of money for a couple of canes of. I found them by the tree full. I learned later the place was in clove production." In my humble opinion, it would have been preferable to have purchased the plant… possibly from the same source as your friend... stimulate the local economy and all and give these people incentive to want to protect their natural resources but then one can save a bucket full of money if one collects from the wild. I have seen many villanize developers hence alienating them. It has been my experience that developers would rather work with conservation groups and the green industry as opposed to working against them and that a little respect goes a long way toward getting that heads up phone call that a site is going to be "improved".

Fear and intimidation are very powerful tools. Many have mastered the use of them. We can look toward our own history to find many examples of same. How many farmers in the US drained wetlands and plowed under plants on their properties out of fear the government was going to come in and seize their lands if endangered and/or threatened species were discovered to be growing on them all because of a little publication laced with misinformation?

Wild collection, fire suppression, invasive species, noxious weeds, pesticide and chemical dependencies, industrial interests, pollution, and of course the forests “being destroyed for food production by native farmers who need to feed their families” as well as many other evils are collectively taking an unprecedented toll. To ignore a rapidly diminishing gene pool that once allowed plants to adapt to changing conditions by not focusing on what we can do to make a difference is probably not in our best interests. Best to not take a defeatist attitude right about now because biological diversity is irrefutably essential to human existence.

All I'm saying is that if everyone rationalized their harvesting from the wild based on how much money one could save by not having to purchase the plants or based on the assumption that the ecosystems in which these new species or desirable plants of any species grow are just going to be destroyed sooner or later by “native farmers who need to feed their families”- what will be left for future generations? It's all about responsible and sustainable collection which doesn't seem to occur in countries where there are no laws on the books to protect "desirable" plants and the fragile ecosystems in which they grow.

I agree with you Lance Birk- “David Liddle sounds like the kind we need more of in the plant world”.

Hey NYEric, I don't know hoya from goya myself without looking at the plant stakes in each pot but my husband likes white flowering hoyas hanging around our home so I purchase based on what blooms white which appeals to him. He liked the photographs of the blooms on the plants I'd like to add so since he pays the bills, I always try my best to select additions based on his preferences not mine. Me, I like pink and yellow blooms.

 

[NYEric]

You can get them at Wallmart but I don't think I've seen them in flower before,

 

[TheLorax]

I think my husband bought the first few we have from either Home Depot or Menards. He liked the foliage but when he saw some of the understated blooms, he was disappointed. He asked me to check out getting more of these hanging plants for the house but to try to buy hoyas where the blooms would actually show up against the foliage.

 

[Heather]

(wish I knew how to insert that yellow smiley poking the blue smiley right about now)

Lauren - you can click on the emoticon on the right side of the reply to thread screen or your can type : poke: (omitting the space.)

 

[TheLorax]

Thank you Heather. Too late now but I did sort of insert the thought of that being what I had wanted there.

 

[Lance Birk]

My, my, my, isn’t this interesting, The Lorax, since you are unable to present an opposing argument, you resort to name-calling. This adds nothing to the discussion, it only demonstrates your own lack of sophistication. But then, I told you that you wouldn’t believe some of what I wrote and that it would make you angry. Did you even wonder how I knew that? In nearly 3 decades of jungle travel during the last century, I have seen plenty. And when was the last time you were in an area completely isolated from any sort of civilization that would give you the qualifications to discount my own?

You obviously, have never been to places where the struggle to survive is a life or death situation on a daily basis. It is where there are few if any metal tools, or crop seeds, or clothing, or stores, or where anything useful for humans might be purchased because those natives have no money or anything with which to barter. Besides, they are completely lacking in elemental education.

I have seen things only a tiny handful of men will ever see and have been to places most people do not even believe exist. I have been to places where no white man has been and to places so remote that nearly half the population is inbred albino. I’ve been to places where there is no ‘language,’ as such, and to where an entire village of 1,800 people lay dead from disease. I’ve seen naked farmers barely existing, and whose children had not.

These are places where slash and burn agriculture lives, and it is days by foot or by boat and usually many miles away from any city or town.

Your comment about your preference for buying plants from native people simply shows how you do not understand the problem. Those people are civilized. For the most part, none of them need to torch the jungle; they are producers, of some sort or another.

Incidentally, if you thought for just a moment, about the dollar costs of mounting an expedition into the jungle to search for just a single plant you might see just how inane your comment about buying them cheaply from a native really is. My costs for film alone on each trip was in the thousands of dollars. Months of planning, gathering of reference materials and other information simply can’t be counted, as can be travel, lodging, food, medications, equipment, etc., expenses can.

It’s the OTHER native people I’m talking about. THEY are the ones who must cut down acres of forest, burn the old-growth trees to clear the land and to provide some basic semblance of fertilizer, plant their tubers or cuttings, …and then move to another plot 3 years later because that’s the most they can squeeze from the nutrient-poor soils. There are millions and millions of them. When the rains don’t come or the plague does, well, …Darwin’s theory keeps their populations down. But not forever. And then there is the charcoal producer. Everyone needs fuel to cook their food….

I used to believe all that ‘stuff’ people throw out as facts, …that was until I went there and saw for myself what real truth was. As I said, I’m not surprised at your disbelief; you, like most everyone else are simply too invested in the lies you have been fed. What surprises me is that so many seemingly intelligent people do not have the ability or the curiosity to question anymore.

It doesn’t really matter if you believe what I say or write because you are not the one who will make the difference.

 

[NYEric]

Wow, touchy!

 

[Lance Birk]

Touchy??? I think not.

I don't like being called a liar anymore than you would.

 

[NYEric]

Anyone is entitled to their opinion as to what is "the whole truth". I don't think that it was an attack, or name calling. You can dispute it and present an contradicting argument. That is the point of having this avenue for discourse.

 

[TheLorax]

No Eric, not that touchy. There are evidently people here who are simply not pleased having their belief system challenged and will brook no opinion to the contrary. They find it easy to dismiss the belief systems of others as simple contrarianism and attempt to assign it the status of religion. It would appear his underlying assumption is that anyone who disagrees with his position is automatically and unequivocally wrong. Not all people who hold opposing views are necessarily malevolent, egostistical, naive, ignorant, or wrong.

John Godfrey Saxe's ( 1816-1887) version of the famous Indian legend

It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind.

The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"

The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, "Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"

The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"

The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he;
"Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"

The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said:"E'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!"

The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"

And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!

Moral:

So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!

Oh ouch Lance Birk! I feel your pain. Think I'll go toddle off and buy some more plants from nurseries that I feel relatively confident don't field collect.

As Margaret Meade puts it

Never underestimate the ability of a small group of people to change the world; indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.

 

[TheLorax]

Oh geeze, more posts while I was cutting and pasting.

Lance Birk, no one is calling you a liar. I do not accept your interpretation of what you have seen as being the whole truth though. If you want to field collect, go for it.