Australia fire emergency

[emydura]

Emydura, I believe you misconstrued the purpose of my post.

In my opinion, had such areas remained unpopulated and had been left on their own, such fires could certainly still happen. I did not say or mean to imply that had those areas been manually burned, none of this would have happened or been less bad. What I was TRYING to say is that such areas are not particularly good places to populate, but now that they have been, we just have to deal with the consequences.

When I see news about the fires in Australia, it makes me sick.

Sorry Ray. I have misunderstood your post. Still it wasn’t totally wasted as it is relevant to a few other posts.

You make a good point. A lot of these houses are located in fire traps. Before I moved to Canberra I lived in the Blue Mountains for many years. That is basically a regional city located in a national park with most streets surrounded by flammable eucalypt forests that burn regularly. It is always a disaster waiting to happen. In 2003, the fires roared up to my parents place. The garage and pergola caught fire but fortunately the firefighters were able to save the house. The houses around us burnt down. It is always just a matter a time before the fires will return.

The fire experts are imploring governments to stop building/rebuilding houses in such fire prone areas but it is unlikely anything will change.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jan/19/bushfire-destroyed-homes-should-not-be-rebuilt-in-riskiest-areas-experts-say?CMP=share_btn_link

 

[Stone]

I can only see the stupidity in your reply. If the Wollemi Pine was not discovered in 1994, it would now be extinct. The Gosper Mountains fire was burning everything in its path. A fire sensitive species such as the Wollemi Pine would have had little chance. It only survived due to firefighters drenching the canyon. Not only have humans ensured this population has survived for now, they have also established a couple of more populations in the Wollemi National Park. On top of this humans have propagated millions (literally) of Wollemi Pines which are now grown all around the world. There would be more Wollemi Pines growing now than has been the case for thousands of years. To say that the Wollemi Pine is no more secure now than it was before 1994 is just illogical.

If you don't believe me, then read this article by James Woodford who is the author of the book "The Wollemi Pine: The Incredible Discovery of a Living Fossil from the Age of the Dinosaurs". He backs up everything I have said. With all due respect, I would put his knowledge way ahead of your own.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jan/17/wollemi-pines-time-travellers-from-a-different-australia?CMP=share_btn_link

So you are saying that by pure chance, white man came along at the exact time during it's multi million year history just when it was about to become extinct due to a fire in 2019, but not because of the 100,000 fires (?) it survived before that particular point in time?
Praise the LORD it is a miracle!

 

[Stone]

Stephan Pyne confirms my guess

"What Australia needs is more fires "
The American fire expert Stephen Pyne explains what can be learned from the Australian inferno and why it is dangerous to suppress natural forces.

Almost everyone except the climate people have now agreed on this fact. Including serious studies in the US.

 

[Stone]

I don’t know the regions beyond my own observations from a single visit decades ago, but I get the impression that they’re what we’d call “chaparral”, with trees and underbrush. Such areas are supposed to be “cleansed by fire” periodically. That is typical of parts of California, and here in the southeast US, we have similar scenarios, and there are a plants and trees that won’t even reproduce until they are exposed to it.

The problem comes in when the fires are unnaturally suppressed for years, so that ground-level fuel supply gets denser and denser. So, instead of a brief fire that burns off the above-ground tinder in a flash, you end up with very intense fire that takes out trees and cooks the soil, killing root systems and everything else. Then (California is a great example) when rains come, there is nothing to anchor the soil, so mudslides and general erosion occur.

All of the issues are man-made, as we overbuild and “manage” areas that should be left pristine and allow nature to take its course. However, what’s done is done, so arguing about the point is ridiculous.

Mr Ray is 100% correct. (apart from the need to argue the point). The argument that climate is to blame is pure political nonsense as illuminated in this excellent interview. Climate is just a set of statistics and has no power to do anything. Weather is the ruler.

 

[Stone]

Released today was a comprehensive list of species that are under most threat of extinction from the bushfires in Australia. There are around 25 species of orchid included. Two are epiphytic orchids (Sarcochilus), the rest are terrestrial.

https://www.theguardian.com/environ...cies-australian-bushfires-towards-extinction?

A load of garbage.

 

[Stone]

I'm trying to not get involved in this but there are a few things I must say. Homo sapiens is the animal species with the fastest growing population on the planet. We are also the species that changes the planet the most, in positive and negative ways. As we effect changes we need to be more aware of the affects and try to destroy/disturb as little as possible.

Yes. That is called permanent natural habitat destruction due to human development. Fire is not in that category. The more severe the fire the longer it takes to re-establish, but re-establish it does. It is a process which has been going on forever and no doubt it has had a direct effect of the evolution of the species here. For example, the Koala, although badly affected by these severe fires which reach right up into the top canopy probably would not exist in it's present form if it were not for fire because the Eucalyptus would also not have evolved the way it has. Young scientists seem to love going out into a natural system and finding something wrong because they have a very simplistic, narrow view. We also must realize that humans are part of the natural system. The planet could not care less what happens to it's inhabitants.

 

[Ozpaph]

Sorry Ray. I have misunderstood your post. Still it wasn’t totally wasted as it is relevant to a few other posts.



The fire experts are imploring governments to stop building/rebuilding houses in such fire prone areas but it is unlikely anything will change.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2020/jan/19/bushfire-destroyed-homes-should-not-be-rebuilt-in-riskiest-areas-experts-say?CMP=share_btn_link

I think not being able to get insurance will also be a deterrent (though I suspect many of these homes weren't insured)

 

[Linus_Cello]

I think not being able to get insurance will also be a deterrent (though I suspect many of these homes weren't insured)

interesting point. Is there political will for a “bailout” to provide funding to rebuild uninsured homes?

 

[NYEric]

so Stone, you're saying that man does not affect climate including humidity?

 

[Berthold]

so Stone, you're saying that man does not affect climate including humidity?

I say nobody knows about that by sure because data of the past are not available and all models of climate development do not fit the reality.

Therefore it makes no sense yet to invest several thousand billion $ or € in reducing CO2 emissions.
Maybe we should invest the money in building higher dykes and dams.

 

[ehanes7612]

RECAP: Neither Stone or Berthold currently believes that anthropogenic climate change exists. These are well established facts (Stone and Berthold not buying it)..do we really need to rehash it here?
We can all agree to disagree and move on.

 

[Berthold]

RECAP: Neither Stone or Berthold currently believes that anthropogenic climate change exists. These are well established facts (Stone and Berthold not buying it)..do we really need to rehash it here?
We can all agree to disagree and move on.

Don't write this nonsense here please and read my post before writing.
I wrote, I don't know if there is an anthropogenic climate change and I think, that nobody knows about that yet.

Perhaps it is easier to understand for You:
I don't know if there is hostile human life somewhere in our galaxy. And I say there is no sense to invest 1000 of billion of $ in protecting against that yet, even if there are 97 "scientists" who saw some UFOs in the sky..

 

[ehanes7612]

Well, I had hoped with my wording you wouldnt take offense but i think you just like to take offense. That German sensibility maybe.
I didn't say if you knew or not , I said you "DONT BELIEVE"...which for most of us (because we are not climatologists) is the best we can achieve..we either believe it or not ( and varying degrees of not sure). I believe there is anthropogenic climate change but do I know it? that would be kinda arrogant ...and I have never said I know it exists.

And secondly, the conditions you give for proof COULD NOT exist for a long time, so in essence , you don't believe it, ..like the saying goes " I will believe it when I see it" ...that's YOU!


Like I have said before...be very specific about your language..you leave too much for the imagination

 

[ehanes7612]

Anyway, good to see the Australian Open able to be played with the smoke in the air...hope the winds dont change

 

[Berthold]

I didn't say if you knew or not , I said you "DONT BELIEVE"...

It is a stupid insinuation from You, because You don't know, what I believe.

 

[ehanes7612]

hmmm..Okay, probably stupid but I believe you don't believe but you believe to not believe or believe or to believe what people know what you believe..well, we can just agree to disagree...believe me

or maybe you believe it does exist but .....the possibilities are endless

 

[Ray]

Will you two please cut the crap.

 

[ehanes7612]

Eric started it (just kidding) ..actually, I started it last year or the year before with a tongue and cheek post about peaches growing in Montana...and through certain people pressing about the reality of climate change or not ..we have gotten to this point..where a thread about remembering those who have suffered in the fires has turned into a soapbox for anyone. That's what this thread is...I am just playing along now. "The Moderator" is free to moderate and remove the posts..I dont care...sorry, no offense intended. Actually, I wish I could be removed from ST permanently so I wont be tempted to respond to this crap show..I just have no self control.

 

[Ray]

Actually, I wish I could be removed from ST permanently so I wont be tempted to respond to this crap show..I just have no self control.

That can be arranged, you know.

 

[Berthold]

That can be arranged, you know.

Isn't it a job for a psychotherapist instead of forum moderator?