Breeding trends for Yellow Paphs

[scottbjd]

Hello Slipper talk,

I am an associate AOS judge for Montreal. A part of completing my training as an AOS judge is by collecting award information, expert testimonials and writing a report (also known as a probationary paper). My topic is Yellow Paph breeding with focus on the parvisepalum species. In summary I will explore the types of yellow flowered Paphs that are getting awarded and where their yellow flower comes from; be that album or parvisepalum breeding. The problem that I am having is getting more testimonials from experienced paph growers or breeders on this topic so I thought I would ask here. Feel free to post here, although id prefer to exchange our names so maybe personal messages are best.

Some ideas for questions would be: Where do you think yellow breeding is heading? How important do you think albas are for the future of yellow breeding? What about Paphiopedilum armeniacum? Paphiopedilum hangianum? What are advantages or disadvantages for the current availability of yellow hybrids on the market (i.e. slow growth, poor seed count)? Cultural experiences would also be welcomed.

Thanks in advance! Pictured is my plant of Paph Latoya for your attention.
Scott

 

[tnyr5]

A quirky, fun tidbit to look at: compare the result of armeniacum x delenatii with that of x vietnamense

 

[Happypaphy7]

hmm pretty empty here unless you already received some private messages with helpful info.
Since I love yellow flowers of anything, I am very much interested in knowing more on this topic also!

As far as I know, album variety is not being used a lot in Parvisepalum breeding. Other than delenatii album, the album variety simply are very rare and expensive, thus not practical.
I have not even seen it offered in the last flask list from Taiwan with the exception of hangianum album which is sold for a few thousand dollars. There are flasks of hangianum (standard form x album) also, but obviously they will all look like a regular hangianum.
Because they are very rare and the stage is yet too early, we don't know what results it will bring. I for one think hangianum album won't provide much when it comes to breeding for yellow flowers. The color intensity of even a regular hang is nothing like armeniacum and it is not dominant, either. It has a great advantage of increasing the flower size and fragrance in some lucky cases. That's about it.
At least, nothing like what armeniacum does with the exception of pairing armeniacum with delenatii, which yields pure white flowers.

As you have shared the photo of Fanaticum x armeniacum above, the trend has been backcrossing yellow parvi hybrids (containing armeniacum obviously) to armeniacum. There are things like Harvey Man Hee Wong (Shun Fa Golden x armeniacum, already registered back in 2013), Golden Palace (Mem. Larry Heuer x armeniacum), Barbara Larkin (Fumi's Delight x armeniacum), Latoya/TB Warren (Fanaticum x armeniacum) and more.
Some of the results I have seen were all as expected. Extra bright yellow flowers that contain some features from the hybrid parent or simply a giant armeniacum in appearance. Some of them grow well and some are just as grumpy as armeniacum it seems.
Considering many of these have been available for years now, I'm sure further breeding has been going on. But I personally think these hybrids are dead-end because I don't see the point of injecting yet another dose of armeniacum to any of these yellow hybrids.
Might as well breed for a "better" armeniacum if that makes sense.
Pairing armeniacum as well as other parvis with species or hybrids of other Paphiopedilum subgenera was tried long ago.
I have rarely seen anything worth looking at and maybe that is why no one really is interested in repeating this effort any more.
I think the best-case scenario might be sib-crossing complex yellow hybrids containing armeniacum and hangianum, then bloom them out in large numbers and select the ones with the best flowers as well as the easy growing and blooming habits.
just my little rambling to get the conversation going.

 

[JustinR]

hmm pretty empty here unless you already received some private messages with helpful info.
Since I love yellow flowers of anything, I am very much interested in knowing more on this topic also!

As far as I know, album variety is not being used a lot in Parvisepalum breeding. Other than delenatii album, the album variety simply are very rare and expensive, thus not practical.
I have not even seen it offered in the last flask list from Taiwan with the exception of hangianum album which is sold for a few thousand dollars. There are flasks of hangianum (standard form x album) also, but obviously they will all look like a regular hangianum.
Because they are very rare and the stage is yet too early, we don't know what results it will bring. I for one think hangianum album won't provide much when it comes to breeding for yellow flowers. The color intensity of even a regular hang is nothing like armeniacum and it is not dominant, either. It has a great advantage of increasing the flower size and fragrance in some lucky cases. That's about it.
At least, nothing like what armeniacum does with the exception of pairing armeniacum with delenatii, which yields pure white flowers.

As you have shared the photo of Fanaticum x armeniacum above, the trend has been backcrossing yellow parvi hybrids (containing armeniacum obviously) to armeniacum. There are things like Harvey Man Hee Wong (Shun Fa Golden x armeniacum, already registered back in 2013), Golden Palace (Mem. Larry Heuer x armeniacum), Barbara Larkin (Fumi's Delight x armeniacum), Latoya/TB Warren (Fanaticum x armeniacum) and more.
Some of the results I have seen were all as expected. Extra bright yellow flowers that contain some features from the hybrid parent or simply a giant armeniacum in appearance. Some of them grow well and some are just as grumpy as armeniacum it seems.
Considering many of these have been available for years now, I'm sure further breeding has been going on. But I personally think these hybrids are dead-end because I don't see the point of injecting yet another dose of armeniacum to any of these yellow hybrids.
Might as well breed for a "better" armeniacum if that makes sense.
Pairing armeniacum as well as other parvis with species or hybrids of other Paphiopedilum subgenera was tried long ago.
I have rarely seen anything worth looking at and maybe that is why no one really is interested in repeating this effort any more.
I think the best-case scenario might be sib-crossing complex yellow hybrids containing armeniacum and hangianum, then bloom them out in large numbers and select the ones with the best flowers as well as the easy growing and blooming habits.
just my little rambling to get the conversation going.

What about the Dollgoldi line? Maybe some potential there?

 

[Happypaphy7]

What about the Dollgoldi line? Maybe some potential there?

Using DG as a starting block for further hybridization or remaking of it? Both have been done quite some time ago.
Personally, I believe that remaking of parvi (or brachy) x multi hybrid is not going to yield "easy" blooming plants as some catalogues claim. I see that as more of a hope/dream or sales pitch.
When these hybrids are crossed back onto either parvi species or multi species, the results can be spectacular, but we don't see these easily. In my own very limited trial and from what I was told by breeders, these either do not produce any viable seeds or germination rate is very low. Then, some seedlings won't develop normally and teminate themselves. There definitely exists some kind of genetic issues in these pairings.

There is this unique hybrid called Alexa Noel which is Hatsue Otsuka x rothschildianum. Hatsue Otsuka is Golddollar x roth.
So, Dollgoldi was not used. They just got around this to achieve something similar, I guess.
Anyway, playing around with things like Dollgoldi in creating yet another yellow and pretty flower will first face the fertility and productivity issues. Then, the next question will be among what few that will eventually grow into a mature size and successfully bloom, how many of the progenies will be deformity free?
I wish there were more pictures of all these hybrids but I could barely find just a handful after much digging.

 

[BrucherT]

What about the Dollgoldi line? Maybe some potential there?

I’m growing one. It’s a nightmare of touchiness and refuses even to try to bloom.

 

[JLOG]

hmm pretty empty here unless you already received some private messages with helpful info.
Since I love yellow flowers of anything, I am very much interested in knowing more on this topic also!

As far as I know, album variety is not being used a lot in Parvisepalum breeding. Other than delenatii album, the album variety simply are very rare and expensive, thus not practical.
I have not even seen it offered in the last flask list from Taiwan with the exception of hangianum album which is sold for a few thousand dollars. There are flasks of hangianum (standard form x album) also, but obviously they will all look like a regular hangianum.
Because they are very rare and the stage is yet too early, we don't know what results it will bring. I for one think hangianum album won't provide much when it comes to breeding for yellow flowers. The color intensity of even a regular hang is nothing like armeniacum and it is not dominant, either. It has a great advantage of increasing the flower size and fragrance in some lucky cases. That's about it.
At least, nothing like what armeniacum does with the exception of pairing armeniacum with delenatii, which yields pure white flowers.

As you have shared the photo of Fanaticum x armeniacum above, the trend has been backcrossing yellow parvi hybrids (containing armeniacum obviously) to armeniacum. There are things like Harvey Man Hee Wong (Shun Fa Golden x armeniacum, already registered back in 2013), Golden Palace (Mem. Larry Heuer x armeniacum), Barbara Larkin (Fumi's Delight x armeniacum), Latoya/TB Warren (Fanaticum x armeniacum) and more.
Some of the results I have seen were all as expected. Extra bright yellow flowers that contain some features from the hybrid parent or simply a giant armeniacum in appearance. Some of them grow well and some are just as grumpy as armeniacum it seems.
Considering many of these have been available for years now, I'm sure further breeding has been going on. But I personally think these hybrids are dead-end because I don't see the point of injecting yet another dose of armeniacum to any of these yellow hybrids.
Might as well breed for a "better" armeniacum if that makes sense.
Pairing armeniacum as well as other parvis with species or hybrids of other Paphiopedilum subgenera was tried long ago.
I have rarely seen anything worth looking at and maybe that is why no one really is interested in repeating this effort any more.
I think the best-case scenario might be sib-crossing complex yellow hybrids containing armeniacum and hangianum, then bloom them out in large numbers and select the ones with the best flowers as well as the easy growing and blooming habits.
just my little rambling to get the conversation going.

Very interesting! I like all this info you get, and makes me think about it, thank you!

 

[scottbjd]

Thanks for the replies. Very good things to consider. The breeding considerations are very valuable, I just need someone to quote. I already have Sam so just one more would be good I think.
Definitely seeing some second generation parvi hybrids available now which is neat. I am kind of late to the game and and still collecting the primary hybrids. I am actually expecting to get my first Dollgoldi next week so I hope it is not too reluctant to bloom.
I saw a few years ago that the hybrid of roth x Dollgoldi had been registered but have not seen any awarded. I don't know multis well but I think this cross has potential to have more flowers with more roth features with the hope of retaining the yellow colour. Who knows maybe they have too many problems.
A random idea with the new albas on the market, has anyone heard of a alba roth?

 

[Happypaphy7]

I wish there were more photos of (multi x parvi) x multi hybrids available. Quite a few of these were registered while back but you rarely see photos. I have seen only one of three, Delrosi x roth (super nice!! like a darker larger slender version of Delrosi, I guess the goal of the cross), Gloria Naugle x roth (meh~ it almost looks like a roth), Harold Koopowitz x roth (also meh).
Since these photos show just one example of each named cross, I'm sure good ones will be very good.
I would love to see Dollgoldi x roth. I would think most would look like a "dirty" roth but the best of the best will be a impressive yellow roth flower.
I don't think an alba roth has been found yet, which is strange because roth might be the most cultivated and bred multi species.

Good luck with your Dollgoldi. I have two multiple growths plants that I have had for years. They love to make sheaths but nothing ever comes out of them so far. They would just sit there forever and eventually wither away.
As we speak, I have my very first buds on Gloria Naugle opening up. I have bought quite a few and none of them except for this one ever even made a sheath. I really hope this Gloria Naugle will be good in bloom as I would love to make some hybrids out of GN.

 

[incharm]

I think, It is hard to make pure yellow Parvis hybrids without armeniacum. If we check all the primary hybrids of Parvis, will be easy to get this conclusion.
The picture attached is (In-Charm Golldolar(Landmark x armeniacum) x rothschildianum). Fortunately most of this cross seedlings can make further breeding. I got some seedlings which used it to cross with armeniacum or hangianum. Seedlings grow well so far. I wish can have more round shape and big yellow multiflora come out.

 

[Happypaphy7]

Wow~ that is beautiful!! Less prominent dark stripes compared to typical Dollgoldi.

 

[JLOG]

I think, It is hard to make pure yellow Parvis hybrids without armeniacum. If we check all the primary hybrids of Parvis, will be easy to get this conclusion.
The picture attached is (In-Charm Golldolar(Landmark x armeniacum) x rothschildianum). Fortunately most of this cross seedlings can make further breeding. I got some seedlings which used it to cross with armeniacum or hangianum. Seedlings grow well so far. I wish can have more round shape and big yellow multiflora come out.

Love this cross! Thanks for sharing and info

 

[Ozpaph]

You should consider contacting - Masayoshi Takahashi, Tokyo Orchid Nursery. His work on introducing parvis into complex breeding has lead to some amazing outcomes. Log into Facebook

 

[monocotman]

Agreed ozpaph. The pot of gold ‘Jupiter’ is just stunning. Wonder how many plants he had to flower to find this?

 

[Happypaphy7]

Scott
Also, the mentioning of armeniacum x complex hybrid reminds me a fabulous cross by Hillsview Gardens.
Their FB main page has Paphiopedilum Helen's Gold (Annette x armeniacum) if you haven't seen yet.
Also, if you haven't contact them, you might want to. They have made some yellow parvi hybrids.

 

[mrhappyrotter]

Haven't had a chance to do much but a quick scan on this thread, but I do hope Paph. hangianum yellow breeding works out because I really want fragrant Paphs to be more prominent! And the fact that hanginanum does provide some good supportive genes for yellow hybrids, as well as large flowers and thick floral texture, not to mention its effects on blushing and tessellation, it seems like a good species to use, to me.

As long as flower size isn't a top priority, I think P. primulinum hybrids have a strong role to play as well, if only because they tend to produce easy to grow and bloom hybrids. High end hobbyists and advanced growers obviously play a big part in the hobby. However, having easy to grow and bloom hybrids for new and novice growers is important, too. Those easier types of Paph are more likely to go into mass production and to become popular in collections. Granted, I'm biased here because P. primulinum is also fragrant and sometimes imparts a faint fragrance in its hybrids.