Cattleya mossiae

[NEslipper]

I expect this plant is going to generate a healthy bit of discussion, but what is Slippertalk without some drama from time-to-time? This a seedling originally from Steven Christoffersen, from the cross C. mossiae 'RE Patterson' x C. mossiae 'Panther Creek' AM/AOS. This is the third blooming, and the flowers have significantly fuller form this time. The flowers on the second blooming were absolutely enormous, with the classic floppy petals. This time there are 3 blooms, but they are all smaller and carry the petals more upright. Fragrance is just kicking in and it has been extremely dark and cloudy here, so I will report back on how that develops. There has been a fair amount of controversy regarding the two parents of this plant, with some claiming both are actually C. gravesiana - the natural hybrid of mossiae with lueddemanniana. The main reason for this is the upright petal carriage of RE Patterson and the darker color of Panther Creek relative to many mossiae. However, both are reportedly from generations of line-breeding, so if there is lueddemanniana in their background, it's likely further back than just one generation. I can say this plant is almost certainly a tetraploid, the bulbs are stout and chunky, and the flowers are full with tremendous texture. It also certainly grows like a mossiae, resting for ~8 months before sending up buds in the sheath, and mossiae season is in full swing here on the East Coast of the U.S. In my mind it got the best of each parent, the upright petals from RE Patterson, and the darker color and slight flares from Panther Creek. It actually reminds me of C. mossiae 'Anthony Alfieri' AM/AOS, which has also been somewhat controversial, I believe. Interested to hear what others think.

 

[papheteer]

All is know is that it looks so beautiful!

 

[Ozpaph]

gorgeous flower.
Lip markings remind me of lueddemanniana

 

[monocotman]

Whatever its parentage, it’s a lovely flower. It even has small flares!

 

[Guldal]

Whatever its parentage, it’s a lovely flower. It even has small flares!

Hear, hear...well spoken!

 

[My Green Pets]

This is exciting, I have a seedling from this cross, maybe he made it multiple times? It is a strong grower for sure, hope I get something this nice. I agree that it does not resemble any mossiae I've ever seen, but that's not saying too much. Wonderful flower and looking forward to hearing about the fragrance.

 

[DrLeslieEe]

There are several of these dark mossiaes that came as sibs or related to the ‘Willowbrook’ cultivar such as ‘Dark Prince’, ‘Panther Creek’, et al that have been suspect to introgression with lueddemanniana genes.

As pointed by others here, I too have taken an opinion that they could be natural hybrids, possibly from a common seed pod. The intensity of the color and the fullness of the petals favoured the latter to such obvious nature that it is not hard to be convince of such. From observing and collecting (and awarding) so many mossiaes from many original jungle plants to new breeding over the last 20 years (around the world) have taught me to differentiate the real and fake ones.

Regardless, they are beautiful flowers and esp this one with the nice flamea markings. It’s a keeper!

 

[Carmella.carey]

Ok, to start off this flower is absolutely beautiful.
As a through and through mossiae enthusiast I believe that 'Panther Creek' is for sure C. x Gravesiana
But I also believe that many others under suspicion such as 'R. E. Patterson', 'Julie' and 'Anthony Alfieri' ( Anthony Alfieri being a select seedling from a selfing of variety Julie) are true mossiae, do to their shape which is still quite mossiae- like. There are many fine dark varieties of mossiae and the credit for the color should not automatically be given to lueddemanniana.
Alright I've said my piece.
-Patrick

 

[Happypaphy7]

I highly doubt that is a true species as well. Too obvious.

 

[Carmella.carey]

I highly doubt that is a true species as well. Too obvious.

I'm not sure if there is a registered hybrid between mossiae and x Gravesiana, but this would be that.
-Patrick

 

[GuRu]

Can't contribute to its identification but to say it frankly .... these flowers are gorgeous.

 

[NEslipper]

This is exciting, I have a seedling from this cross, maybe he made it multiple times? It is a strong grower for sure, hope I get something this nice. I agree that it does not resemble any mossiae I've ever seen, but that's not saying too much. Wonderful flower and looking forward to hearing about the fragrance.

My understanding is that the cross was made in 2011, and has started blooming out in the past couple of years. As an update on the fragrance, now that the flowers are mature and we’ve had a few sunny days, I can only describe it as “extravagant”. Certainly nothing like the typo luedemanniana I bloomed earlier this year. I can smell it several rooms away and down a long hallway when I open up my bedroom door in the morning.

 

[NEslipper]

There are several of these dark mossiaes that came as sibs or related to the ‘Willowbrook’ cultivar such as ‘Dark Prince’, ‘Panther Creek’, et al that have been suspect to introgression with lueddemanniana genes.

As pointed by others here, I too have taken an opinion that they could be natural hybrids, possibly from a common seed pod. The intensity of the color and the fullness of the petals favoured the latter to such obvious nature that it is not hard to be convince of such. From observing and collecting (and awarding) so many mossiaes from many original jungle plants to new breeding over the last 20 years (around the world) have taught me to differentiate the real and fake ones.

Regardless, they are beautiful flowers and esp this one with the nice flamea markings. It’s a keeper!

I know ‘Panther Creek’ was first awarded to Barney Garrison in 1990, almost 10 years before ‘Willowbrook’ was awarded (1999). Do you happen to know if/how the two plants are related, and where they supposedly originated from?

 

[richgarrison]

definitely like love the flowers !!!

but for me

wonderfully informative thread...

when i saw the lip i immediately thought leuddie... so great to be a party to the conversation

thanx for posting!

 

[Duck Slipper]

Very nice.
Excellent color!

 

[DrLeslieEe]

I know ‘Panther Creek’ was first awarded to Barney Garrison in 1990, almost 10 years before ‘Willowbrook’ was awarded (1999). Do you happen to know if/how the two plants are related, and where they supposedly originated from?

I read it somewhere? Thing is, Willowbrook was awarded long after it appeared I think. Let me do some digging.

 

[NEslipper]

I'm not sure if there is a registered hybrid between mossiae and x Gravesiana, but this would be that.
-Patrick

If there is any lueddemanniana in 'Panther Creek', it's almost certainly further back than a single generation, making the identity of this plant much more complicated. I for one, am not convinced 'Panther Creek' isn't a true mossiae, a quick internet search turns up several images including this one: LINK. To me, it just looks like an improved mossiae - perfectly attainable through dedicated line breeding. What amazes me, is how consistent the offspring from the 'RE Patterson' x 'Panther Creek' cross have been, and how the majority I have seen listed for sale favor the 'Panther Creek' parent. There's generally this idea that if the parents are hybrids, there will be significantly more variability in the offspring.

 

[Carmella.carey]

If there is any lueddemanniana in 'Panther Creek', it's almost certainly further back than a single generation, making the identity of this plant much more complicated. I for one, am not convinced 'Panther Creek' isn't a true mossiae, a quick internet search turns up several images including this one: LINK. To me, it just looks like an improved mossiae - perfectly attainable through dedicated line breeding. What amazes me, is how consistent the offspring from the 'RE Patterson' x 'Panther Creek' cross have been, and how the majority I have seen listed for sale favor the 'Panther Creek' parent. There's generally this idea that if the parents are hybrids, there will be significantly more variability in the offspring.

this photo of variety Panther Creek looks more like mossiae than others i've seen; but still skeptical.
-Patrick