Does phrag besseae = dalessandroi?

[tomkalina]

Hi Rick,

These are all good questions; I wish I had definitive answers! It's possible the original population of d'alessandroi was located at a higher elevation than besseae near Chiguinda, Ecuador and the swarm migrated downhill, inter-breeding with besseae to create the natural hybrid Jersey. I believe the original population of d'alessandroi was very small, and I'd be surprised if any of that population remains. I think very little that's being sold nowadays marked "d'alessandroi" is the true species. As far as a pollinator, I've heard stories that both species were hummingbird pollinated, but I doubt this because there doesn't seem to be any "reward" involved. They are probably pollinated by an insect; possibly a beatle attracted by a fragrance we can't detect. I don't think a pollination has ever been recorded. Also, I don't think there is much temperature differential between these habitats because of their close proximity; possibly less than 2-3 F; certainly not enough to cause me to grow them differently.

 

[Rick]

Ya not sure about the hummingbird pollination either. Despite the red color, the structure of slippers isn't really amendable to a bird (which is too smart to do the same dumb thing twice for no reward) which would probably target the main entrance of the pouch, and not come into contact with either pollen or stigma.

Sounds like a good grad student project to put some of that sticky trap stuff on some flowers and see what they catch! (Hopefully not hummingbirds)

 

[FrankRC]

The original phrag d'alessandroi habitat is far removed from Chiguinda, Ecuador and the species does, in fact, still exist in its natural habitat. I have observed the pollinator of this species and it is definitely not a hummingbird. Culture information as reported in this thread is not consistent with my observations or experience growing true D'alessandroi. True D'Alessandroi likes to get a bit dry between waterings and has a tendency to rot if kept as wet as Besseae likes. Moving plants of D'alessandroi into a more open mix that allows for some drying between waterings has led to spectacular results under 2 different sets of culture. Perhaps this explains its rarity in cultivation. Its natural habitat is not as wet as Besseae. Besseae likes constant seepage on exposed granite cliffs, while D'Alessandroi prefers more boisserianum type of conditions, growing among grasses and other plants in a habitat that tends to be a bit dryer.

In my experience, based upon what is going on fifteen years of observation of both species in cultivation and in situ, using the growth habit as a taxonomic guide is foolish. While true that D'alessandroi will branch more freely, both species can branch extensively, besseae more so when allowed to form multi-growth plants and left undivided for several years or more. Additionally unsupported is the contention that one species tends to produce new growth in clumps as opposed to longer stolons. Once presented with a sufficient sample size this misconception becomes apparent. This trait depends more on the individual than the species.

The true distinction between the species can easily be observed in mature plants of D'alessandroi. Vegetatively the plants are ENORMOUS as compared to Besseae, with leaves 2 to 3 times as long and wide. It is not uncommon for mature plants of D'alessandroi to have leaves 18 inch's long and 3 inches wide. The cultural discrepancies can be eliminated as a control as my observations have been made with wild plants of both species growing side by side after several years in cultivation. Also, D'alessandroi flowers have unique down-swept petals.

While cross pollination is impossible to rule out, the true habitat of D'alessandroi has been stable for years and remains a closely guarded secret. Besseae, on the other hand, tends to have more inherent variability and has been known to "pop up" in previously well explored area's in central and southern Ecuador. The trade winds are unpredictable as the wind swirls around the mountains, through the valleys and given Besseae's fondness for exposed cliff surfaces new populations of besseae have been observed to establish on recently cleared cliff surface with recent blast marks. The same cannot be said of D'alessandroi.

I would caution any serious phragmipedium enthusiast against reliance on opinion and conjecture concerning D'alessandroi and Besseae. Cultural and taxonomic opinion in the absence of sufficient knowledge, exposure and information has led us to the point we are at now, where confusion and supposition rule the day and phragmipedium enthusiasts are left staring at a species plant or registered hybrid and left asking themselves exactly what is it that I am growing...

 

[Mathias]

Very interesting information - thanks for posting! Do you know if any of the local vendors (Ecuagenera, Mundiflora) are aware of this distinction and are making an effort to offer the real Phrag d'alessandroi? Both vendors are selling this species.

 

[Shiva]

Hi Rick,

They are probably pollinated by an insect; possibly a beatle attracted by a fragrance we can't detect.

Which one Tom? There were four of them. oke:

 

[Shiva]

FrankRC
Thanks for the tip about growing dalessandroi drier. I just lost one to rot. Now I know why.

 

[Kavanaru]

Which one Tom? There were four of them. oke:

:rollhappy:

 

[Kyle]

Very interesting information - thanks for posting! Do you know if any of the local vendors (Ecuagenera, Mundiflora) are aware of this distinction and are making an effort to offer the real Phrag d'alessandroi? Both vendors are selling this species.

Ecuagenera does have some real dalessandrois. They do thier best to keep them seperated from thier besseas. They are in a different greenhouse. I have attached a picture comparing the leaves of the two species. I don't know about Mundiflora.

Hi Frank. Haven't heard from you in a while.

Kyle

 

[koshki]

Which one Tom? There were four of them. oke:

That took me far too long to get! :clap:

 

[tomkalina]

George or John, I'm sure Always delighted with your contributions, Frank. Any chance you memorialized the pollinations with a photo?

 

[koshki]

Frank, thanks for your explanation.

In terms of my example, La Hougette, which is (supposedly) 50% d'allesandroi, 25% sargentianum, and 12.5% besseae and schlimii each, how do you decide whether to grow it with wet feet or dry??

 

[Rick]

I have observed the pollinator of this species and it is definitely not a hummingbird.

Thank's Frank. We pretty much discounted the supposition that hummingbirds were the pollinators.

So what is the polinator? What is the pollinator for besseae?

Did you publish this info anywhere (readily accesable) so we wouldn't have to really on supposition?