does this look like a virus?

[Aaron888]

I got this Cattleya orchid about a year and a half ago as a division from an elderly man. It bloomed a few months later and the blooms looked fine. Now this is the second blooming and the blooms are splotched. During the growth of this blooming growth we were in a very hot heat wave and a lot of my plants suffered so I am wondering/hoping that the high temp. may have caused this and it's not a virus. What do y'all think it is?

 

[monocotman]

That looks like virus to me.

 

[terryros]

Certainly one that I would test with Agdia strips.

 

[Ray]

Agreed

 

[Aaron888]

that is what I was afraid of - 2nd question because I have never had experience with virus in orchids - I just battled a spider mite infestation on my plants what is the likely hood that they spread the virus to all my other plants? This just makes me sick ALSO I grow nepenthes, tropical butterworts and a large king sundew can orchid virus be transmitted to these plants as well?

 

[southernbelle]

I got this Cattleya orchid about a year and a half ago as a division from an elderly man. It bloomed a few months later and the blooms looked fine. Now this is the second blooming and the blooms are splotched. During the growth of this blooming growth we were in a very hot heat wave and a lot of my plants suffered so I am wondering/hoping that the high temp. may have caused this and it's not a virus. What do y'all think it is?

High temps may have stressed the plant which allowed the virus to become symptomatic. Spider mites can spread from plant to plant and as they say, they don’t brush their teeth between plants, so very possible to spread virus if they were on this plant. I don’t know about spreading to other plants outside of orchids but you definitely should test all your orchids and then every new one that comes into your collection.

 

[Aaron888]

Thank y'all for the advice I am going to get some strips and test. On a side note does anyone know about tester plants? I remember having an orchid book back in the early 90's that I think was probably written in like the late 70's or 80's that had the old way of testing for virus in orchids. I cant remember what plants were used though. I remember it was something like - to test for one type of virus you might use a plant (don't remember what but lets just say geranium) take a leaf and scrape a section of the leaf then take a part of the orchid that is suspected crush it up and rub the sap into the wound of the tester plant and in a week or so the leaf would begin to show discolorations out from the exposed area that would quickly spread to the whole plant if the orchid was positive. The book had a list of plants and what virus they could be used to test for if I remember correctly but again this was back in the 90's so not 100% sure how accurate it would be because I can't find anything remotely like it on line now as far as information.

 

[Aaron888]

well the results are in - I purchased the test kit from Agdia and the plant came back positive for not one BUT both viruses - CymMV and ORSV - this is so disheartening. If it is the only plant then I will be ok but if some of my nicer plants are positive this will be hard to get over because I have paid some good money (for me anyway) for some special plants and if they are trashed it's going to make me sick. I still am worried about my nepenthes because I can't seem to find any info about whether they are susceptible to orchid virus or not. The one thing that makes me wonder is I have a N. bicalcarata that all of a sudden in the last 6 months or so I can not get it to form pitchers and I never had any problem with it before.

 

[southernbelle]

well the results are in - I purchased the test kit from Agdia and the plant came back positive for not one BUT both viruses - CymMV and ORSV - this is so disheartening. If it is the only plant then I will be ok but if some of my nicer plants are positive this will be hard to get over because I have paid some good money (for me anyway) for some special plants and if they are trashed it's going to make me sick. I still am worried about my nepenthes because I can't seem to find any info about whether they are susceptible to orchid virus or not. The one thing that makes me wonder is I have a N. bicalcarata that all of a sudden in the last 6 months or so I can not get it to form pitchers and I never had any problem with it before.

You might call and talk to tech at Agdia about what other types might be vulnerable. I believe Tobacco Misaic Virus and CymMV are related and I’ve heard can be transferred to orchids by people who smoke. Can’t remember the source, though.

 

[littlefrog]

As I learned it the virus survives the burning of the cigarette. So it is the smoke that transfers the virus, not the people. That virus can't grow in people...

I always found that a little far-fetched, but maybe it is true. Not at all far fetched to assume that somebody who handles tobacco would have tobacco on their hands, though. And pretty much all tobacco is a great source of TMV. In the old days (DO NOT DO THIS) people soaked tobacco in water and used that as a pesticide. Or you could buy nicotine sulfate, which was basically the same thing only far more concentrated. It is very toxic to humans (or anything with a nervous system). And pretty much guaranteed to transmit virus to susceptible orchids.

I have a doctorate in cancer biology, but even if I didn't I wouldn't handle, chew, or smoke tobacco. I'll handle pretty much anything with my bare hands, this is not one of those things. Always amazes me that people will brag about 'avoiding toxins' and on the next breath inhale one of the most potent carcinogens on the planet.

Nepenthes alata is evidently capable of being infected by TMV (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6593082/), so it seems possible that other species are too. I think I'd seek out an alternative explanation for the pitchers not forming first.

 

[southernbelle]

As I learned it the virus survives the burning of the cigarette. So it is the smoke that transfers the virus, not the people. That virus can't grow in people...

I always found that a little far-fetched, but maybe it is true. Not at all far fetched to assume that somebody who handles tobacco would have tobacco on their hands, though. And pretty much all tobacco is a great source of TMV. In the old days (DO NOT DO THIS) people soaked tobacco in water and used that as a pesticide. Or you could buy nicotine sulfate, which was basically the same thing only far more concentrated. It is very toxic to humans (or anything with a nervous system). And pretty much guaranteed to transmit virus to susceptible orchids.

I have a doctorate in cancer biology, but even if I didn't I wouldn't handle, chew, or smoke tobacco. I'll handle pretty much anything with my bare hands, this is not one of those things. Always amazes me that people will brag about 'avoiding toxins' and on the next breath inhale one of the most potent carcinogens on the planet.

Nepenthes alata is evidently capable of being infected by TMV (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6593082/), so it seems possible that other species are too. I think I'd seek out an alternative explanation for the pitchers not forming first.

So just trying to understand. Are you saying that someone who smokes and touches tobacco before it is burned cannot have the virus on their hands? Even if that were the case, anyone who smokes often finds their hands smelling like smoke, which would say to me that the smoke has gotten on their hands, clothes, etc. so if the virus is transferred by smoke…

 

[littlefrog]

No, quite the opposite. But, maybe to be more clear:
A) smoke probably does still contain live virus now that I think about it more... I just read something a few weeks ago about wildfire smoke spreading both bacteria and viruses (not something I'd ever even considered).
B) It is likely that live virus could be transmitted from a cigarette (or chewing tobacco) to the hand of the person. Handling a cigarette and then handling an orchid would be a potential source of infection. Wouldn't need to smoke the cigarette...
C) As we all know, we should sterilize our tools and surfaces after working with infected plants. Or any plant we suspect of being infected. Ideally between every plant... Not sure how many people actually do that.

And as a bonus tip that I learned from somebody on the forum many many years ago (Ray?), you can soak your tools in reconstituted dry milk to inactivate the viruses. Took me a while to convince myself that was true, but I'm reasonably confident... Flame is better! But hard on tools.

 

[gonewild]

Firstly.... There is absolutely no excuse to smoke tobacco around valuable plants.

Even if the virus in tobacco cigarettes is killed by the burn the smoke particles are drawn through unburned tobacco where it can be inoculated with virus. The exhaled smoke settles on everything.

 

[southernbelle]

Firstly.... There is absolutely no excuse to smoke tobacco around valuable plants.

Even if the virus in tobacco cigarettes is killed by the burn the smoke particles are drawn through unburned tobacco where it can be inoculated with virus. The exhaled smoke settles on everything.

I don’t smoke, so my above comment was not based on that but was in reference to crossover of viruses to other types plants. Didn’t mean to stir things up.

 

[Aaron888]

so far the testing is not going good - all of my Cattleya orchids EXCEPT 1 has tested positive. I have not started on my slippers yet or any other var. Growing under lights and all my plants being in such close proximity seems to have allowed the virus to spread like wild fire. If the rest of my plants continue this trend of being positive this will probably do me in with orchids. I will definitely keep the plants that are negative but I don't know that I will be purchasing any more - too much money, time and work invested for the lions share of my collection to be trashed. I am to the point I don't even want to go into my grow room now. I am going to take a leaf cutting from the N. bicalcarata and do it the same way as you do orchids and see if the test gives a positive for it - I would assume that the test just identifies the virus and the plant type would not have any impact so maybe that will give me some assurance on my nepenthes

 

[terryros]

Paphs and Phrags seem less likely to get infected. Southern belle and I did collection-wide testing about the same time and threw away a good proportion of plants, feeling awful. After getting “clean” we are very careful to only buy plants that have been tested and to be sure to disinfect tools that have come in contact with plant sap. We know there are infrequent other viruses in addition to the big two, but we are covering more than 90% of the infections with the available testing kits. As you point out, we invest a lot of money and time in these plants. We need to avoid buying infected plants and shouldn’t spread the infections ourselves.

 

[Aaron888]

so far none of my paphs or phrags. have tested positive and the N. bicalcarata came back neg. so if my only loss is my Cats. I will be very much relieved. I always torch my cutting tool between cuts so I can only think that the close prox. of the plants on the grow rack and the mite infestation I had spread it. I just wish I knew which plant was the one that brought this into my collection. I suspect the Cat. I was given by the older gentleman because it was the first to show signs but it may have been from some phals that came from my local box store that I thought were pretty. Some where I read that phals are bad to have virus and show no signs (don't know if that is true or not)

 

[orchid527]

Well, now you have some choices to make. You can test everything, toss the infected plants, develop an effective barrier strategy and spend a lot of money, or you can toss all sickly plants and assume that everything else is either infected or could easily be infected. In either case, the way you grow your plants is going to change. It is also important to remember that any plants you contribute to society displays are going to be surrounded by infected plants. You can’t really be sure that any conservatory venues are safe, even if you have a display with just your own plants.

In my own case, I spent thousands on testing supplies and threw away $5-10 K in plants, but I am clean now, at least for CymMV and OSRV. I’m not sure I would make the same choice, if I had it to do over. That said, I know of two commercial operations that took the no test path, only to see their plants completely deteriorate over time. It was so sad to watch stud benches with incredible plants become sickly wastelands.

The only insect vectors that I am really worried about are thrips. It has been demonstrated that they definitely can spread virus. I suspect mealy bugs could, but my mites and scale don’t move around very quickly. I keep a microscope in the greenhouse and check plants regularly for things like this. Like I said, the way you grow plants is going to change.

Phals are the worst. Until recently, and for a period of 10-15 years, phals ran about 60% infected. I do believe it is better now, at least based on my testing, but the results may be biased because I avoid particular sellers.

 

[southernbelle]

Aaron, I'm so sorry. I do feel your pain. I also learned the hard way, losing 1/3 of my collection to virus at one point. Be aware that the most likely virus vector in your growing environment by far, is your hands!! Dave Off (Waldor, who were the first to identify viruses in orchids years ago) emphasizes this all the time. Think about the sap on cattleyas. How many times have you gotten it on your hands and touched another plant? So wear gloves and wash your hands often. Use disposable single edged razor blades where you can to save on disinfecting as much. I don't disinfect clippers between cuts on the same plant, but do before I use on another plant.
It also means that you need to not only flame your blade, but disinfect the handles on your clippers. I soak in supersaturated TSP, then after rinsing and drying, wipe them down with Super Sani-Cloth wipes (the kind they use in hospitals/doctor's offices). NOT for use on skin, though. Then, I flame the blades. I wipe all my surfaces, faucets, watering wand head, door handles down with the wipes, as well. Each plant sits in it's own saucer where ever it goes except when draining after watering on a grid over the sink. Which brings up something else. Virus is spread by run off from one plant to another. UNC has done studies and 100% of plants getting run off from virused plants being watered were infected. Never let your plants share large saucers or trays. I wear gloves and repot on freezer paper which is waxed so moisture doesn't wick through to the surface.
I've never had an infected Paph, but have had Phrags that were infected (all from one vendor), and phals are by far the worst. I only have 3 mini phals and 3 species now for that reason. Everything gets tested when it comes in, before it's repotted, and at least every 2 years if it goes that long before repotting. The last plants I had that were positive had recently come back from a show. I now take a box of disposable gloves to shows and ask anyone handling my plants to wear gloves. So far it's been a year and a half with no positive virus tests, but every single time I test something, I hold my breath! I don't reuse any stakes, labels, clips or clay pots. I bleach sanitize, using germicidal bleach, any plastic saucers or pots that I want to reuse, but usually have to cut the pot to get the plant out, so don't have many. Anything metal like rhizome clips, metal hangers, etc. gets washed with Dawn detergent, soaked in TSP, rinsed, dried, then baked in a 400 degree oven for 2 hours. TSP alone is not sufficient, but in combination with the wipes, flaming, or baking I think pretty safe. I grow in a 9 x 12 indoor grow room, so must immediately get rid of anything that's positive as I can't isolate. I now have some very old, original, virus free historic plants, so I see it as almost a moral responsibility to keep them clean. But even the meristems I keep are special to me for some reason and I want to protect them.
Learn from your experience, determine not to make the same mistakes and move on. It is worth it. Just think of all the new bench space you will have once you cull the virused plants. ;-)

 

[terryros]

Aaron, I'm so sorry. I do feel your pain. I also learned the hard way, losing 1/3 of my collection to virus at one point. Be aware that the most likely virus vector in your growing environment by far, is your hands!! Dave Off (Waldor, who were the first to identify viruses in orchids years ago) emphasizes this all the time. Think about the sap on cattleyas. How many times have you gotten it on your hands and touched another plant? So wear gloves and wash your hands often. Use disposable single edged razor blades where you can to save on disinfecting as much. I don't disinfect clippers between cuts on the same plant, but do before I use on another plant.
It also means that you need to not only flame your blade, but disinfect the handles on your clippers. I soak in supersaturated TSP, then after rinsing and drying, wipe them down with Super Sani-Cloth wipes (the kind they use in hospitals/doctor's offices). NOT for use on skin, though. Then, I flame the blades. I wipe all my surfaces, faucets, watering wand head, door handles down with the wipes, as well. Each plant sits in it's own saucer where ever it goes except when draining after watering on a grid over the sink. Which brings up something else. Virus is spread by run off from one plant to another. UNC has done studies and 100% of plants getting run off from virused plants being watered were infected. Never let your plants share large saucers or trays. I wear gloves and repot on freezer paper which is waxed so moisture doesn't wick through to the surface.
I've never had an infected Paph, but have had Phrags that were infected (all from one vendor), and phals are by far the worst. I only have 3 mini phals and 3 species now for that reason. Everything gets tested when it comes in, before it's repotted, and at least every 2 years if it goes that long before repotting. The last plants I had that were positive had recently come back from a show. I now take a box of disposable gloves to shows and ask anyone handling my plants to wear gloves. So far it's been a year and a half with no positive virus tests, but every single time I test something, I hold my breath! I don't reuse any stakes, labels, clips or clay pots. I bleach sanitize, using germicidal bleach, any plastic saucers or pots that I want to reuse, but usually have to cut the pot to get the plant out, so don't have many. Anything metal like rhizome clips, metal hangers, etc. gets washed with Dawn detergent, soaked in TSP, rinsed, dried, then baked in a 400 degree oven for 2 hours. TSP alone is not sufficient, but in combination with the wipes, flaming, or baking I think pretty safe. I grow in a 9 x 12 indoor grow room, so must immediately get rid of anything that's positive as I can't isolate. I now have some very old, original, virus free historic plants, so I see it as almost a moral responsibility to keep them clean. But even the meristems I keep are special to me for some reason and I want to protect them.
Learn from your experience, determine not to make the same mistakes and move on. It is worth it. Just think of all the new bench space you will have once you cull the virused plants. ;-)

I don’t think anyone is more careful than Deborah is now. There is evidence to support everything she does. I am a little less careful only because my plants don’t go anywhere and I hardly ever get a new plant (and then only a negative tested one). I also don’t have any insect pests in my plant room. I periodically test a few plants to be sure the collection is staying negative.