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DavidCampen
Guest
You consider losing a leaf for each new leaf to be normal growth? No wonder that your plants eventually whither away and die.
Early K-lite results
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You consider losing a leaf for each new leaf to be normal growth? No wonder that your plants eventually whither away and die.
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keithrs
Guest
I think it's quite normal for some catts to "shed" the older(2-5 yrs) leaves if the plant is healthy. Looks quite normal looking at pics of wild catts.
100% correct.
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DavidCampen
Guest
Cattleyas in the wild are struggling to survive so you would expect them to be exhibiting symtoms of less than perfect health.
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DavidCampen
Guest
It is definitely abnormal.
So why are you using "k-lite", what perceived problems are you trying to treat?
Welcome rcb!
I think if we can go through facts and your observations we can solve your problem, if in fact it is a problem.
How long have you been using the K-lite?
When you see the leaf turn red is it only at the time of new growth or at bloom?
Have you seen any leaves that grew "new" during the K-lite use that have turned red and fallen?
How old are the leaves that are falling?
On a Cattleya plant how many new leaves are there and how many old leaves?
As a general observation how do you compare the new growth growing with K-lite to the way new growth grew with MSU?
Can you show any pictures of your plants?
I think if we can go through facts and your observations we can solve your problem, if in fact it is a problem.
How long have you been using the K-lite?
When you see the leaf turn red is it only at the time of new growth or at bloom?
Have you seen any leaves that grew "new" during the K-lite use that have turned red and fallen?
How old are the leaves that are falling?
On a Cattleya plant how many new leaves are there and how many old leaves?
As a general observation how do you compare the new growth growing with K-lite to the way new growth grew with MSU?
Can you show any pictures of your plants?
Are you serious? Have you ever been out of the city?
What do you base your statement on?
Did I say I use K-lite?
Using K-lite is not to treat problems it is to grow better plants.
That said the observations form growers using K-lite are that they are noticing reduced rot problems in their collections, more growths, more blooms, bigger blooms, more roots, bigger roots.
So far there are only two people that say K-lite does not work, You and Segun. Neither of you have used K-lite and I find it strange you are so convinced it does not improve growth. Rick asked you what your agenda is and I asked if you were a Troll and you don't even know the answer to those questions.
Maybe we can keep this thread about learning about rcb's red leaves by sticking to facts and observations from the collective ST knowledge base.
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DavidCampen
Guest
So do you or don't you use "k-lite".
That is not what the AOS article said.
I answered Rick's question obliquely the same day and you replied to it by spouting gibberish. I didn't answer your question because I did not think it was a genuine question worth bothering with but the anwer is no.
That seems to mean only those who do not disagree with you.
Does it matter?
Really? I guess I should read the article.
Can you prove you are not a Troll? Do have scientific proof?
Search the archives you will learn that I have no problem with an argument. You will also see that you are the only person I have ever called a "Troll". There are several threads where the K-lite use was being argued so there is no reason to bring the discussion to this thread where rcb has come to genuinely try to learn something that may improve her growing techniques.
My apologies rcb for this slight interruption in hearing about your plants.
Rick
Well-Known Member
rcb
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the welcome, and I do appreciate the attention you all have given to my......issue.
I've been using the K-lite since sometime at the beginning of last years growing season. I'm not sure of the date, but Ray might have records? Probably 9 - 12 months ago.
Older - but that might not be the proper description, possibly previously matured, leaves only seem to start turning red during late bud development/blooming. I have not noticed any correlation between new p'bulb growth and older leaves turning red. Ray had asked me this before, so I went and checked carefully.
As I've only been using the K-lite for a year, I don't think any one year old leaves on the Catts at least have turned red and fallen. Second year old growth has. For the Dens, yes on a couple of the evergreen Dens. Obviously the decidous Dens you can't tell. Bulbos mostly 2nd year leaves I've seen turning reddish.
For the Catt plants, it's a range of old to new. Some plants are in 4 inch pots, some are in 10 inch pots. Some plants have 5 - 6 p'bulbs, some have at least 30. I'm discounting seedlings here, as no problems, but no blooms either on them. So I don't have an answer to this question that really covers it accurately.
New growth with K-lite was an obviously larger growth on average. Taller and wider, on already matured plants. Yes I definitely saw a benefit for growth. Another note, bloomings have been definitely on average much better as well. To give an example, my Siam Jade hybrid which typically was giving 3 - 4 flowers per spike, gave me two spikes with 6 flowers, and 1 spike with 7 flowers a couple months ago. Not all plants are that much improved, but an overall average increase is noticeable.
Yes I can get pics of the plants. Today is bad, but I should be able to tomorrow morning, and get them posted up.
Thank you for your attention.
rcb
Well-Known Member
I use three types of inorganic media, which I choose based on the drying needs of the specific plant.
LECA, lava rock and Turface/Perlite.
When plants are outside they are completely open, therefore the main plain watering is rain. My fertilizing solution is rain water if I have it, or my tap water. Periodically we do have a spell with no rain, and I will water with tap water too.
Tap water here is pretty good. They do not measure TDS at the water plant. But hardness is 30 max. The technician there stated that they rarely actually have a hardness that high though. The water department increases the pH to a target of 7.0, but the techician told me the range is 6.8 - 7.2 in reality.
okay, you mention that the coloring is mostly on catts that are flowering, and they are having more flowers than usual? plus you are seeing a bit more growth; larger and taller. so, the floral structures or growth in general will draw more phosphorus (than before). the general word for hort crop production that i'm assuming is true, is that the phosphorus is 'necessary' for floral production, and generally used more when there are quickly-growing floral structures that have branching or differentiation (like mums with lots of branches and flowers). this is a generalization of course. so, it sounds like your increased floral growth is drawing some phosphorus (if your friend's diagnosis was correct) from the older leaves, which isn't completely bad since there is some there and you have more growth/flowers and all, but it could be that a little more phosphorus may be all you need to alleviate the red leaves.
it would be nice if you were able to 'test' this somewhat by splitting your collection in half and watering one part with the same and the other with klite and a little more phosphorus and see if there is any difference in coloration. (or you could use a 'bloom booster' lol just kidding, unless there was one that didn't have much k in it)
it would be nice if you were able to 'test' this somewhat by splitting your collection in half and watering one part with the same and the other with klite and a little more phosphorus and see if there is any difference in coloration. (or you could use a 'bloom booster' lol just kidding, unless there was one that didn't have much k in it)
I will start off with saying that I do not think 9-12 months of reduced phosphorous is enough time to show as a deficiency like this.
When you say older do you mean last seasons leaves or from several seasons back? Of the leaves that drop are they always the oldest leaves on the plant?
When second year growth has, is it on plants with a lot of bulbs or only a few?
On th Dends... when the leaves fall do all leaves on the stem fall?
For the Catt plants, it's a range of old to new. Some plants are in 4 inch pots, some are in 10 inch pots. Some plants have 5 - 6 p'bulbs, some have at least 30. I'm discounting seedlings here, as no problems, but no blooms either on them. So I don't have an answer to this question that really covers it accurately.
You do have an answer.... It does not effect the immature plants. The leaf loss is only on mature plants and only on growths that have already bloomed or never will bloom. This is pointing to a trend of the plants simply turning off un-needed dependent stems.
So growth and bloom have improved and what you are concerned about is the loss of older plant parts.
1. I don't think you have a plant health decline problem.
2. I think your plants are growing better and they do not need the old parts any longer. Why waste time sending water to leaves and stems that offer nothing towards the plants reproduction?
3. The red color of the leaves before they fall off may very well be an indication of improved plant health. Certainly we can't assume when a leaf turns red and falls off the plant is not healthy. Many plants leaves turn colors before they are dropped.
4. Plants with rhizomes migrate... the new growth moves away from the old. This happens so the plant can change locations and acquire more nutrients. As the plant moves away from the old growths that have already done their cycle(reproduction) there is no need to keep the old parts active so less nutrients flow the distance and all resources are used in the new reproductive parts that are traveling away. This will happen even when there is plenty of food...the plant uses the food for new growth not to support old used up leaves.
Please pictures really help.
I'm just giving my opinion but I don't think you have a problem. What I think is that your plants are growing better. Ask yourself what is better, a pot full of old leaves and 3 small flowers or a pot with fewer leaves and 6 big flowers?
I'm making an educated guess that I' expect someone to disagree with but with what you have said so far I think your red leaves are an indication of improved growth. I would not add more Phosphorous as long as the new growths are good and the bloom is good.
And as far as the red leaves go.... see them as pretty red leaves saying goodbye and thanking you for the wonderful dinner.
Now I reserve the right to change my mind after I see your pictures!
Rick
Well-Known Member
I take it you are not using these media in a semi hydro like system. Just a root support? I'm wondering about your media as being a significant player in this. Clay products have a CEC capacity too. If there is sufficient alumina and iron, then I can see phosphate getting tied up by the media (especially if fresh). Activated aluminia is a great medium for phosphate uptake. K lite does have a reduced phosphorus content to start with, so it's not out of reality that P could be getting short changed in these pots. Can you spike a bit of bone meal to some of these pots?
rcb
Well-Known Member
This is kind of along the lines I was thinking. Ray had sent me a suggestion of using bone meal, and I could sprinkle a little in 1/2 the pots every month, but it might take a while to see the results. Many of these plants are species and decidedly seasonal bloomers.
rcb
Well-Known Member
A lot here. But I so appreciate it. I'm adding my answers in the quote text, hopefully this works.
I will start off with saying that I do not think 9-12 months of reduced phosphorous is enough time to show as a deficiency like this.
I understand your point. But remember also that inorganic media + frequent Florida downpours, if there was a situation that would show a deficiency quickly, this would be it.
When you say older do you mean last seasons leaves or from several seasons back? Of the leaves that drop are they always the oldest leaves on the plant?
I mean pre 2012 growing season. So not the leaves that matured on last summer's growth. No they are not always the oldest, sometimes yes sometimes no. No clear trend with that.
When second year growth has, is it on plants with a lot of bulbs or only a few?
Both
On th Dends... when the leaves fall do all leaves on the stem fall?
Yes eventually. With the Dens it's a slower process. But my evergreen Dens are ones with long bloom life.
For the Catt plants, it's a range of old to new. Some plants are in 4 inch pots, some are in 10 inch pots. Some plants have 5 - 6 p'bulbs, some have at least 30. I'm discounting seedlings here, as no problems, but no blooms either on them. So I don't have an answer to this question that really covers it accurately.
You do have an answer.... It does not effect the immature plants. The leaf loss is only on mature plants and only on growths that have already bloomed or never will bloom. This is pointing to a trend of the plants simply turning off un-needed dependent stems.
So growth and bloom have improved and what you are concerned about is the loss of older plant parts.
1. I don't think you have a plant health decline problem.
2. I think your plants are growing better and they do not need the old parts any longer. Why waste time sending water to leaves and stems that offer nothing towards the plants reproduction?
3. The red color of the leaves before they fall off may very well be an indication of improved plant health. Certainly we can't assume when a leaf turns red and falls off the plant is not healthy. Many plants leaves turn colors before they are dropped.
4. Plants with rhizomes migrate... the new growth moves away from the old. This happens so the plant can change locations and acquire more nutrients. As the plant moves away from the old growths that have already done their cycle(reproduction) there is no need to keep the old parts active so less nutrients flow the distance and all resources are used in the new reproductive parts that are traveling away. This will happen even when there is plenty of food...the plant uses the food for new growth not to support old used up leaves.
I understand what you are saying here, I'm just not sure I like it
Please pictures really help.
I'm just giving my opinion but I don't think you have a problem. What I think is that your plants are growing better. Ask yourself what is better, a pot full of old leaves and 3 small flowers or a pot with fewer leaves and 6 big flowers?
I'm making an educated guess that I' expect someone to disagree with but with what you have said so far I think your red leaves are an indication of improved growth. I would not add more Phosphorous as long as the new growths are good and the bloom is good.
Well to answer your question, I want a pot full of 6 big flowers and full of beautiful old green leaves
And as far as the red leaves go.... see them as pretty red leaves saying goodbye and thanking you for the wonderful dinner.
Now I reserve the right to change my mind after I see your pictures!
