Hangianums for sale in Florida

[aquacorps]

Odom's Orchids in Florida has NBS plants for sale. I dont care for Parvi's, but I thought I would share the link. rusty

http://www.odoms.com/getinventory.cfm?category=Lady Slippers

 

[NYEric]

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
So it begins!

 

[Hien]

Since hangianum is so variable, it would be nice if the sellers show the parents' flowers, or at least, the parents' clone names so the buyers would know what to expect from the seedlings

 

[KyushuCalanthe]

OK, I don't mean to be a dummy, but are these the same plants that were sold at the WOC in Miami last year? I'm surprised at the cheap price too! Only $40 for a NBS plant? I figured the first legal plants would have fetched a lot more.

 

[SlipperFan]

OK, I don't mean to be a dummy, but are these the same plants that were sold at the WOC in Miami last year? I'm surprised at the cheap price too! Only $40 for a NBS plant? I figured the first legal plants would have fetched a lot more.

My thoughts, exactly!

 

[Hien]

Are they normal color or these are the red hangianum flasks that Eric mentioned last year? If it is that would be a decent price no doubt.
Does anyone remember wether they sold more than one cross in Florida?

 

[smartie2000]

that is cheap indeed....

 

[WolfDog1 (C. Williams)]

They did sell more than one cross at the WOC. I bought a flask of them and ended up taking it back to the vendor because they are not legal in the US. I spoke to the head of the US Fish and Wildlife department and he told me specifically that even though they had the proper entry paperwork, the vendor had been told to stop selling them because of their illegal status here. However, I bought my after that. I struggled with the decision to return the flask and ask for my money back, but I did anyway. I have had many second thoughts about it since that time and know that there are many people here in the US that now have what they believe to be legal plants.

I wont go into the explanation that I was given for the US stance on the illegal status of the plants, but chances are the position of the US government on the issue will prevail if anyone gets arrested over it.

I can't wait for them to be legal in the US. I guess until that time I will live vicariously through those people who are willing to take the risk.

(sigh)

Craig

 

[SlipperKing]

There's no way these plants for sale at Odem's came out of a flask last year! Has anyone called them up and ask about the legality of their plants?

 

[Elena]

I spoke to the head of the US Fish and Wildlife department and he told me specifically that even though they had the proper entry paperwork, the vendor had been told to stop selling them because of their illegal status here.

The Cites thing is really confusing. I mean if the plants have all the correct paperwork and they are in flasks (so presumably artificially propagated) then what is it that makes them illegal? An what would make them legal?

 

[Ernie]

The Cites thing is really confusing. I mean if the plants have all the correct paperwork and they are in flasks (so presumably artificially propagated) then what is it that makes them illegal? An what would make them legal?

Senso stricto, the PARENTS that made the plants in the flask must also be legally collected per CITES, that is with the blessing of the government of the country of origin. The US is one of the few countries that use this verbatim interpretation. I spoke with Roddy Gabel of US Fish & Wildlife (he's also a Paph grower) about this along with Wolfdog at Miami WOC and Vietnam has told the US that they have NOT released ANY legal hangianums or given collection permits for them. That might have changed by now, but was true in Jan 2008. The other issue is that neighboring China claims to have its own populations of hangianums which they have released, but last I heard no one could verify this. There are a handful of Paph breeders in Taiwan, who welcomes (???) their association with China when it comes to CITES plants, and many of the propagated hangs come from there I believe. I'm sure someone here could clarify the relationship between China and Taiwan better than I (no offense intended).

-Ernie

 

[Elena]

Thanks Ernie! I understand that. However, in that case why did the US govt issue import permits (I'm assuming that's what Craig meant by "proper entry paperwork") for the hanginums that were available for sale at the WOC?

 

[Ernie]

Because the person that issued the paperwork possibly wasn't familiar with what was being imported OR the identity of the plants or the "legalness" of the parents was, let's say, disguised. Use your imagination...

-Ernie

 

[Elena]

OR the identity of the plants or the "legalness" of the parents was, let's say, disguised. Use your imagination...

-Ernie

Yup, I get that but I figured that if head dude said that the paperwork was proper then it meant that the permits actually said hangianum on them rather than, say, emersonii or Winston Churchill or Maxillaria

A for a govt official not knowing what they were dealing with when issuing the permits then, well, that to me seems like a pretty embarrassing gaffe. Having said that, I'm obviously not familiar with the US system and it might well be harder to keep track of things in such a large country.

 

[Hien]

1) Slipperking:
There's no way these plants for sale at Odem's came out of a flask last year! Has anyone called them up and ask about the legality of their plants?

-I remember that peoples who went to the convention mentioned that there were both plants & flasks available. So perhaps these are the seedling plants from last year & not the plants from flasks. If so the 40 dollar price reflects the plant's size.

2) Ernie:
Vietnam has told the US that they have NOT released ANY legal hangianums or given collection permits for them. That might have changed by now, but was true in Jan 2008. The other issue is that neighboring China claims to have its own populations of hangianums which they have released, but last I heard no one could verify this.

- Vietnam did export plants to China (whether very very cheaply as herb plants in bulk, or as someone even said with proper Cites, but now they change their tune, and claim that it have never happened, only Gods know the reason of this denying) It is too late for them to play game & hope to get any profit out of it any way, since China & Taiwan already made many flasks & hybrids.

 

[Leo Schordje]

I think the problem arises from this odd Catch 22 contradiction in the law.

1.) - Homeland Security (Customs) and Department of Agriculture (APHIS) control & enforce import and export law. Here flasks may be imported LEGALLY. I would guess Roddy Gabel was referring to this paperwork when he said the flasks were legally imported. If they are in flask, APHIS will approve them to enter the country.

2.) The Lacey Act is enforced by US Fish & Wildlife and really nobody else. This is the USA Law that contains the Senso Stricto interpretation that Ernie was referring to. Here the fruit of the poison tree is poison. Here is where the hangianums, not having official permission to leave Viet Nam and having no satisfactorily documented population in China, here is where hangianum is illegal in the USA.

Now because only USFWS is charged wiith enforcing the Lacey Act, you end up with the curious situation where the flasks are legal, but the plants out of flask are not. This of course drives sane men crazy.

In my opinion, the only way to get the law fixed is to ignore the one you don't like. If enough people ignore it, they will have to give up and go away. Eventually the rules will get re-written. But this is only my opinion.

 

[Elena]

Thanks for the explanation, Leo, that clears things up.

 

[NYEric]

There were flasks and seedlings (good roots, 2-3" leafspans; a number of which went to the West Coast) at the WOC. There is no reason to believe these are the source of the ones listed for sale by Odoms.

 

[Bob in Albany N.Y.]

I contacted them about the size of the plants. I got a one sentence reply.

The leafspan is about 5-6". We are probably looking at 2 years to bloom.

 

[Hien]

I contacted them about the size of the plants. I got a one sentence reply.

The leafspan is about 5-6". We are probably looking at 2 years to bloom.

So they are large seedlings & yet to be fully mature, the price is about right.
Too bad, the description mentions that they are with a little bit of red, it does not sound like they are the red ones from flasks at the convention, otherwise I would be very tempted to order a few.
Any way, they can even be made to bloom at this leaf size.
In fact my friends told me that good growers can bloom large seedlings of many species (some species even bloom in flask)