helenae & hermannii

[ORG]

Dear Leo,
I can really agree with you. Paph. hermannii is a distinct species.
Here 2 different clones

When you see the hybrid between hirsutissimum and henryanum, Paph. Frank Zettle, then you cannot have the idea that this could be herrmannii.

Best greetings

Olaf

 

[bench72]

i really can't see how u get a hermannii

from a hirsutissimum...

 

[emydura]

i really can't see how u get a hermannii
[/IMG]

from a hirsutissimum...

Actually Tim, I can see a lot of similarities. Ruffled petals, brown dorsal, shape of the pouch.

David

 

[ORG]

Dear Tim,
here a picture of
Paphiopedilum Frank Zettle - henryanum X hirsutissimum

I have seen also another clone and both are so different from Paph. herrmannii.

Best greetings

Olaf

 

[emydura]

So far nobody has shown me the traits that suggest henryanum?, there are NO spots anywhere in the hermanii I have seen.

Thanks Leo. Fascinating input as always. I agree with you that it appears to be a species irrespective of whether it has originated from a hybrid.

In relation to henryanum traits. To my untrained eye and based purely on photos, the pouch seems a lot like henryanum both in terms of colour and shape. Also brown petals and the outer green dorsal are very similar in colour. Spots do appear to be a pretty dominant trait in henryanum hybrids but then my recent helenae x henryanum cross was basically spotless (apart from a few tiny spots at the bottom of the dorsal).

I agree hermanii is pretty cute. I'll have to try and pick one up. Taiwan nurseries sell flasks of this species very cheaply. Next order hopefully.

David

 

[Leo Schordje]

Thanks Olaf very much for the images. They are very helpful.

Thanks David, you know after I posted saying I did not see ANY henryanum I thought to myself - that is a bit strong of a statement, I should have softened it a little. But really, there are traits shared in common with all of the Paphiopedilum section of the Paphs. Compare any 2 species from this section and you will be able to find several traits that are quite similar. For example the staminode of charlesworthii, villosum, hermanii & helenae all have that dimple in the center. Ruffled petal edges are shared between tranlinianum, spicerianum & insigne. Pink pouches - hermanii & henryanum. One could go on. So clearly it is correct to put hermanii in the Paphiopedilum section. And I think it should stand as a species.
Great discussion. Thanks for getting this started Rose.

 

[bench72]

i see far more similarities from tranlienianum e.g. the shape of the staminoidal shield, top of the dorsal, colours... where does tranlienianum come from? could that be a parent that gives the wavy petals?

 

[ORG]

tranlienianum comes also from Vietnam. but I think it is so different from herrmannii, especially in the lip. When you would see both side by side then you would never have this idea

Best greetings

Olaf

 

[bench72]

lucky for me i subscribe to hermannii being a species

still it's interesting to postulate hybrid origins even if only to stir the pot :evil:

 

[shakkai]

This is a great discussion - thanks, Rose, for starting this off. I got a hermanii back in February and I'm really looking forward to seeing its flowers.

 

[likespaphs]

dang... i still really want a hermanii

 

[ORG]

Here you can find one

http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380116393374&ssPageName=ADME:B:SSE:1123

But it is in Germany

Olaf

 

[likespaphs]

and it's fairly inexpensive.
bummer that i can't get it into the country legally....