If you believe in science and research in the US
- Thread starter ChrisFL
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The trouble is many politicians, especially on the Right, don't approve of higher education. It's hard to control free thinking well educated people. The proof is in the warnings of scientists about global warming and other problems that go unheard by complete morons like Michele Bachman. The US has some of the best scientists in the world and some of the most idiotic politicians.
Science has made the US the most powerful country in the world and there are still schools who prefers teaching Creationism over Evolution by natural selection.
Unfortunately, our Canadian conservative government wants to build more prisons. More prisons only breed more prisonners, but if you build more schools and put good teachers in them, you'll have a future of freedom for everyone.
Science has made the US the most powerful country in the world and there are still schools who prefers teaching Creationism over Evolution by natural selection.
Unfortunately, our Canadian conservative government wants to build more prisons. More prisons only breed more prisonners, but if you build more schools and put good teachers in them, you'll have a future of freedom for everyone.
ehanes7612
Well-Known Member
not so sure on your assessment of higher education...the greatest pedagogical effect on people occur through the family, friends and media when we are children...studies (heard on NPR) have shown that as adults we are only influenced by new information if it validates our current thinking modalities...higher education doesnt create independant thinking it only enforces those who are "independent" thinkers with the constructive critical skills to think effectively..and even in our university system ..these people make up a very tiny minority
studies have also shown that people with more education are no less able to control than people with significantly less education
and the incarceration rate in the US is much much higher than any country in the world
the petition is a great idea
studies have also shown that people with more education are no less able to control than people with significantly less education
and the incarceration rate in the US is much much higher than any country in the world
the petition is a great idea
Sadly the USA is chock full of utter morons. A willful suspension of disbelief in fairy tales and lies supercedes logic and scientific evidence in the self-withered minds of many of our citizens today. It's a sad state of affairs which helps line the pockets of those who own our government now and those who aspire and conspire to own our government in years to come. "We the People" has become more of a myth than a reality -- scary times indeed!
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SlipperFan
Addicted
Therein shows the power of religion.
Just the other day, the House of Reps chose to re-verify our "motto", which became our motto in 1956. I will always prefer our first one: E Pluribus Unum (Out of many, one) -- which is what our country was, until the "far right" started holding sway.
Just the other day, the House of Reps chose to re-verify our "motto", which became our motto in 1956. I will always prefer our first one: E Pluribus Unum (Out of many, one) -- which is what our country was, until the "far right" started holding sway.
this thread is pretty funny!
much research is not being done, because large business has found (from research surveys I've heard in the last 20 years) out that research and development is expensive, and shareholders can't be shown a quick return from it. I think the petition is a good idea, but why not just give the graduate students more money, and have them pay tax like anyone else? how can there be equality if a special interest group gets special treatment? make everything even by giving them a 'raise'... not long ago, the unemployment insurance benefits for the jobless were not taxed; who better to give a break to, than an unemployed person? that has also been changed; there is much less money around so they canceled that. I don't see a petition to change that. there are medical and technological breakthroughs that boggle the imagination happening all the time; where is this educational stagnation? here in the u.s. there are tons of schools and there were tons of teachers before many got laid off; supposedly before many teachers were laid off and some schools started to consolidate, the american schools were rated not very well, for such a supposedly highly-educated mass of people. wars were what brought on scientific improvement, and many of those who brought those improvements were from other countries, fleeing the oppression they saw happening in their own lands. the u.s. wasn't rated that highly scientifically, and if these people hadn't left europe and others, it's likely we would not have the freedom to be speaking out against whatever, and may even have been potholed by axis nuclear weapons.
if people spent less time watching news and popular media and instead got to know people around them and try to help situations instead of searching for ways to get offended and sue everyone else, things might not be so bad. our world is getting polarized; soon everyone will be at each others' throats. read history, learn, recognize and protect yourselves. don't allow yourselves to be brainwashed into becoming part of the problem; instead try to help those around you however you can
much research is not being done, because large business has found (from research surveys I've heard in the last 20 years) out that research and development is expensive, and shareholders can't be shown a quick return from it. I think the petition is a good idea, but why not just give the graduate students more money, and have them pay tax like anyone else? how can there be equality if a special interest group gets special treatment? make everything even by giving them a 'raise'... not long ago, the unemployment insurance benefits for the jobless were not taxed; who better to give a break to, than an unemployed person? that has also been changed; there is much less money around so they canceled that. I don't see a petition to change that. there are medical and technological breakthroughs that boggle the imagination happening all the time; where is this educational stagnation? here in the u.s. there are tons of schools and there were tons of teachers before many got laid off; supposedly before many teachers were laid off and some schools started to consolidate, the american schools were rated not very well, for such a supposedly highly-educated mass of people. wars were what brought on scientific improvement, and many of those who brought those improvements were from other countries, fleeing the oppression they saw happening in their own lands. the u.s. wasn't rated that highly scientifically, and if these people hadn't left europe and others, it's likely we would not have the freedom to be speaking out against whatever, and may even have been potholed by axis nuclear weapons.
if people spent less time watching news and popular media and instead got to know people around them and try to help situations instead of searching for ways to get offended and sue everyone else, things might not be so bad. our world is getting polarized; soon everyone will be at each others' throats. read history, learn, recognize and protect yourselves. don't allow yourselves to be brainwashed into becoming part of the problem; instead try to help those around you however you can
"This innovative, cutting-edge thinking is not being done by bankers, lobbyists, or hedge-fund managers. Innovating is done in the laboratory by Ph.D. and M.S. students. "
Ha ha ha! :rollhappy: Who wrote this BS? A million in R&D spent by HP goes several times further than 10 million spent on university driven research. I'm a PhD student with lots of clever ideas and I'm hardly turning any of that "innovation" into "manufacturing jobs" or anything else that will employ people or even lead to a worthwhile product. It is money-savy private people who turn the grandiose ideas of PhD or the man on the street into anything worth while.
For argument's sake I am going to ignore cnycharles's excellent point about equality before the law and taxing everyone (because special interests kill republics which is what the US was---now it is a democratic tyranny of the presiding majority). The money to fund the tax break for students has to come form somewhere. That somewhere is almost always the type of person or people who invest in turning innovative ideas into products. Tax breaks for the unproductive is jobs lost from the economy as that money isn't spent on buying a product. If demand drops then supply reflexively shrinks. This also means that Mr or Miss grad student will find it harder to find a job when they graduate.
Of course the "lets send everyone to university" folks have now caused a flood of graduates who all have to compete for a handful of jobs in a retracting economy (due to excess government spending on special interests and not enough private-product-purchasing spending). This why there are so many people with BS degrees (bovine excrement) parading around on Wall Street showing the world just how smart they are.
Here in South Africa we have a "Ph.D." project based on the same faulty reason as in the petition. The only results is that we have Ph.Ds flipping burgers at MacDonalds. Only once in the several years that I have been looking in the jobs section of the newspaper seen someone advertising for someone with a PhD which was not an academic post. Around here if you want a job in academia you have to wait for the Prof to die and then fight another 50 applicant for their post.
The world has too many Grad students already and not enough capital-flush entrepreneurs. Give the latter the tax break.
Ha ha ha! :rollhappy: Who wrote this BS? A million in R&D spent by HP goes several times further than 10 million spent on university driven research. I'm a PhD student with lots of clever ideas and I'm hardly turning any of that "innovation" into "manufacturing jobs" or anything else that will employ people or even lead to a worthwhile product. It is money-savy private people who turn the grandiose ideas of PhD or the man on the street into anything worth while.
For argument's sake I am going to ignore cnycharles's excellent point about equality before the law and taxing everyone (because special interests kill republics which is what the US was---now it is a democratic tyranny of the presiding majority). The money to fund the tax break for students has to come form somewhere. That somewhere is almost always the type of person or people who invest in turning innovative ideas into products. Tax breaks for the unproductive is jobs lost from the economy as that money isn't spent on buying a product. If demand drops then supply reflexively shrinks. This also means that Mr or Miss grad student will find it harder to find a job when they graduate.
Of course the "lets send everyone to university" folks have now caused a flood of graduates who all have to compete for a handful of jobs in a retracting economy (due to excess government spending on special interests and not enough private-product-purchasing spending). This why there are so many people with BS degrees (bovine excrement) parading around on Wall Street showing the world just how smart they are.
Here in South Africa we have a "Ph.D." project based on the same faulty reason as in the petition. The only results is that we have Ph.Ds flipping burgers at MacDonalds. Only once in the several years that I have been looking in the jobs section of the newspaper seen someone advertising for someone with a PhD which was not an academic post. Around here if you want a job in academia you have to wait for the Prof to die and then fight another 50 applicant for their post.
The world has too many Grad students already and not enough capital-flush entrepreneurs. Give the latter the tax break.
F
FlowerFaerie
Guest
I agree, but it's not only in the USA...
The problem is not merely one of ignorance, but the use of "scientific theory" for political objectives - to frighten the uninformed majority into following the pied piper .
Anyone can find statistics to prove whatever they want -the danger is that "Joe Public" automatically believes what he hears on the radio/tv etc, and never questions the "official position".
I now disbelieve whatever the government tells me.
Perhaps I'm just getting old & cynical :crazy: but it seems to me that civilisation has passed it's peak....
Rick
Well-Known Member
This is happening less and less in the US. A PHd student in the US came up with a revolutionary new way to make lithium batteries. After taking it to the big Wall street "visionaries" who laughed at him and sent him packing, he took it too the Chinese Govt. who built 7 successful plants. Just recently he came back to the US and got the TN state govt to help put together a package of private and public $ to put a plant together in the US.
The Oil industry was nurtured and subsidized for years by tax payer dollars in its infancy in the 1930, as was the agricultural industry to develop the giant conglomerates of Monsanto and Cargil. I keep hearing the line "govts shouldn't be picking the winners and losers". But govts have been doing this all the time since their inception. There is no separation between govt, business, and the rest of society.
There's been some revolutionary breakthroughs in energy technology that just appear to be gobbled up and buried alive in the bowels of the major corporations (that would otherwise been competing with their established products).
There is no such thing as "free markets" in the US.
Wow. I see a lot of opinions here. I see some facts. I see some misinformation and some misconceptions too. I see some good ideas and also some which aren't quite so good. Mostly I see that this debate could go on forever, but I see very little hope for meaningful improvements in our planet's sociopolitical, economic and environmental situations.
The world has changed a lot during my lifetime. Many of these changes have been wonderful, and many have been just the opposite. I feel very wearied by it all, and to be honest, I no longer feel bad about the prospect of my life ending. The funny part in all of this is that I have yet to form a personal opinion about whether or not the tax-exempt status of graduate student stipends should be reinstated.
:rollhappy:
The world has changed a lot during my lifetime. Many of these changes have been wonderful, and many have been just the opposite. I feel very wearied by it all, and to be honest, I no longer feel bad about the prospect of my life ending. The funny part in all of this is that I have yet to form a personal opinion about whether or not the tax-exempt status of graduate student stipends should be reinstated.
:rollhappy:
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No free market and almost no desire to innovate, unless it's about finding new ways for the banks and the rich to screw people of their money.
I was hoping Obama would bring some changes, but the Conservative Right steadfastly refuses to relinquish its power. Many said it clearly and publicly that they wished Obama to fail. This is a very good way to destroy a nation.
Many said it clearly and publicly that they wished Obama to fail. This is a very good way to destroy a nation.
Their hatred is palpable. There is a Borg-like singularity of purpose in word and deed to ensure the Obama Presidency is a failure and one which lasts one term only. Those opposing him intend to succeed using whatever methods they can and at any cost to this nation and its citizens. It's repulsive, to say the least, not unlike Ann Coulter's personality.
ChrisFL
General Disarray
This is your life as a grad student.
You are carrying deferred debt (if any) from undergraduate. You want to be an innovator, to make genuine, invaluable contributions to our knowledge as a species.
So you get to spend the next 5-7 years living on about $1200 (after taxes!) a month in a city where cost of living is extremely high. Every semester, since you aren't tax exempt, you owe an ADDITIONAL $700 from tuition remission because you are "enrolled" as a student, and when the university entered a graduate contract with you, they are obligated to pay themselves your tuition, which YOU then owe taxes on. Does your rectum hurt yet?
You can't just go get a second job to help make ends meet. Your day is 9 AM to 9PM, often later, of nothing but doing and thinking about science. Seven days a week. I haven't had a day off in over a month.
Did I mention you don't have health insurance either? So you better not get sick or need to see a doctor of any kind.
And then when you get out, you are a member of the educationally elite, with the most disproportionate pay to training ratio on the planet. You have given your life to science and, more often than not serving the taxpayers with your efforts (e.g., National Science Foundation). You will be lucky to make $70K if you decide to continue to serve your fellow man by staying in pure academia.
It's a screwed up system that does nothing to promote the rampant anti intellectualism in this country.
I'm not saying you should feel morally obligated to make stipends tax exempt. I'm not saying it is fair to make stipends tax exempt. I'm not preaching to you. What I am saying is that we already have an uphill battle where, after worrying about becoming the best scientist you can be, long hours, hard work that requires thought and failure, we have to worry about EATING every month on top of it, and it would be awesome for you to support science by making that battle easier on the financial front.
You are carrying deferred debt (if any) from undergraduate. You want to be an innovator, to make genuine, invaluable contributions to our knowledge as a species.
So you get to spend the next 5-7 years living on about $1200 (after taxes!) a month in a city where cost of living is extremely high. Every semester, since you aren't tax exempt, you owe an ADDITIONAL $700 from tuition remission because you are "enrolled" as a student, and when the university entered a graduate contract with you, they are obligated to pay themselves your tuition, which YOU then owe taxes on. Does your rectum hurt yet?
You can't just go get a second job to help make ends meet. Your day is 9 AM to 9PM, often later, of nothing but doing and thinking about science. Seven days a week. I haven't had a day off in over a month.
Did I mention you don't have health insurance either? So you better not get sick or need to see a doctor of any kind.
And then when you get out, you are a member of the educationally elite, with the most disproportionate pay to training ratio on the planet. You have given your life to science and, more often than not serving the taxpayers with your efforts (e.g., National Science Foundation). You will be lucky to make $70K if you decide to continue to serve your fellow man by staying in pure academia.
It's a screwed up system that does nothing to promote the rampant anti intellectualism in this country.
I'm not saying you should feel morally obligated to make stipends tax exempt. I'm not saying it is fair to make stipends tax exempt. I'm not preaching to you. What I am saying is that we already have an uphill battle where, after worrying about becoming the best scientist you can be, long hours, hard work that requires thought and failure, we have to worry about EATING every month on top of it, and it would be awesome for you to support science by making that battle easier on the financial front.
Here's a few suggestions ChrisFl.
Find yourself a rich mate that will help pay your expanses. Become a hit man or a hit woman, but make sure your targets deserve it and that you don't get caught. Steal money, better yet, find a way to fraud those who are frauding everybody else. Become a politician and lie about your schooling and diplomas. You probably could get nicely framed bogus diplomas to become a lawyer or a bank manager. Put the money away (not in the bank). Find a way to hide your income like so many do. Become an ''expert'' like those who go on Fox News. Nobody will ever see the difference. Then, with all the money you can pay all your education expanses and live in style.oke:
Find yourself a rich mate that will help pay your expanses. Become a hit man or a hit woman, but make sure your targets deserve it and that you don't get caught. Steal money, better yet, find a way to fraud those who are frauding everybody else. Become a politician and lie about your schooling and diplomas. You probably could get nicely framed bogus diplomas to become a lawyer or a bank manager. Put the money away (not in the bank). Find a way to hide your income like so many do. Become an ''expert'' like those who go on Fox News. Nobody will ever see the difference. Then, with all the money you can pay all your education expanses and live in style.
oke:ehanes7612
Well-Known Member
the economy wont be affected at all by the non-taxation of graduate stipends or even the taxation ...its too small to be of any significance except for the grad student...and more of a distraction from the real issues (like all the money that goes into the wars we keep fighting)...and investing in a small business is probably just as risky as investing in a grad student .....but if we want real change ..lower the interest rates for student loans ( the greatest category of personal loan debt in this country).. 8% is atrocious and takes money out of the pockets of graduated students that they could be using for buying stuff (improving economy) and lines the pockets of big banks that are hoarding it (or goes back to the govt)
ehanes7612
Well-Known Member
well, lowering the rates on older loans...they are lowering rates on new loans in the coming year..to half or more
I can completely sympathize after reading about the number of ways grad students take a hit; .. and i'm dating myself, but I can remember when I heard that my student loan interest rates were dropping to 8%, I was happy! of course now in comparison to other loans and all that would be a lot. Glad I finished my last loan off this winter :rollhappy:
