Je suis Charlie!
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You did see the "here" in my statement, right?oke:
No, I'm dyslexic, but that is irrelevant. I saw and opportunity to introduce some moral-philosophy and went for it. :evil: At what point does free speech, expression etc... become morally reprehensible?
I have Muslim friends. They have helped me at their expense in the past. I don't like the idea of people drawing nasty cartoons with the express aim of hurting their feelings. That it hurts their feelings hurts my feelings. Like Christ, Andre Comte Sponville advocates a rule of love---but you would need to read his book to get his point.
To be clear, I abhor blood-thirsty murderers and murderous anti-social Islamic memes (as do my Muslim friends who just want live happily ever after with everyone else) more than I do mean-spirited slanderous cartoonists. The latter I can tolerate. The former... well, they are best done away with one way or another.
SlipperFan
Addicted
Isn't this a great forum?
I truly love you all!
I truly love you all!
The Mutant
Well-Known Member
So many good posts and thoughts that express what I've been trying to say and do it so much better than I ever could.
You've restored my faith in humanity somewhat.
I totally agree.
You've restored my faith in humanity somewhat.
Dear Mutant, 'faith' in humanity is always a good thing to have, but I haven't forgotten my post (photograph of CH-cover) that was inmediately deleted.
Internet has never been a real free space (place?) and is already controlled - perhaps we should better coin the word 'orwelled' - and as far as I know, magazines like CH are forbidden in the USA.
Hopefully europ Parlament can stop some of the new national laws that now appeare as if they only had been waiting for the right opportunity...
Let's have faith, or better, let's do someting ourselves...
Internet has never been a real free space (place?) and is already controlled - perhaps we should better coin the word 'orwelled' - and as far as I know, magazines like CH are forbidden in the USA.
Hopefully europ Parlament can stop some of the new national laws that now appeare as if they only had been waiting for the right opportunity...
Let's have faith, or better, let's do someting ourselves...
gnathaniel
Lurker
I don't speak for the admins/mods of this site, but it is an orchid forum and it's certainly conceivable, and conceivably prudent, that they'd rather keep their site out of this particular corner of the free expression debate. Which is well within their rights to do, as this forum was created and funded for a particular purpose that could be damaged by straying too far into unrelated hot controversies. Besides, the cover images are accessible via internet search, so all that's really been censored is ST's association with those images, not anyone's general access to that information.
And while there don't seem to be any precise analogs to CH in the US right now, as a matter of law there's no prohibition on such publications in general, or Charlie Hebdo in particular. To oversimplify but I don't think outright misstate anything, the general presumption in US law is that NOTHING is censored on the basis of its content absent some compelling reason to do so.
In my humble opinion, religion or any other worldview possess real value only insofar as they serve humanity; people who disregard the needs and rights of others in 'service' to religion or ideology have therefore very much missed the point. The CH and related kosher-grocery attacks demonstrate the tragic potential of grossly miscalibrated values, and I fear terroristic displays like these will remain a sad feature of human life until we ALL more substantively address our human tendency to treat 'others' so cruelly...
SlipperFan
Addicted
I can't speak for all the administrators here, but I can't imagine anyone here would delete your post without at least telling you, or moving it to the "Outback" section. I don't remember seeing it. Where did you post it?
SlipperFan
Addicted
For Secundino, and anyone else interested:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat...explained_cartoonist_luz_on_new_mohammed.html
and
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/...o-cartoons-no-one-is-showing-you?detail=email
http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat...explained_cartoonist_luz_on_new_mohammed.html
and
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/...o-cartoons-no-one-is-showing-you?detail=email
L
lepetitmartien
Guest
Thanks for the support, but I think in this regard, free newspaper (as in freedom) are more to be helped than me.
There's incidents against mosque, 119 to today since early january, that is 40% more than usual. Now all cult buildings identified as potential targets are under protection from the police or the army along with public places, institutions.
As you must know, there's been police operations in a few european countries, including a deadly one in Belgium, seemingly it became urgent to stop some other known groups before they went to action, just in time for Belgium it seemed.
I've still not catch a CH issue, it'll be a 7 million copies in the end, available for 2 weeks. I'll try again tomorrow, along with other newspapers (the Canard and Siné Mensuel) also sold out and reprinted. France rediscovered it has newspapers.
I truly don't like when I hear our PM talking about a war against terrorism. It's irrelevant language, you don't declare war against what's not a country but individuals, little groups or bigger structures more or less loosed like daesh of the al quaeda offsprings. Plus it raises some echo upon some bad external policy from the USA that led to no good in middle east (like daesh).
On the law side, it's still along the same lines. The local competition to the most stupid proposal is still on. I really hope this is over for the terrorist part, it's already way too hysteric for reasonable policy here as we hear a lot of blatant stupidities (about the net especially)
Enough for today, I'm already fed up with the stupidities I read on FB…
There's incidents against mosque, 119 to today since early january, that is 40% more than usual. Now all cult buildings identified as potential targets are under protection from the police or the army along with public places, institutions.
As you must know, there's been police operations in a few european countries, including a deadly one in Belgium, seemingly it became urgent to stop some other known groups before they went to action, just in time for Belgium it seemed.
I've still not catch a CH issue, it'll be a 7 million copies in the end, available for 2 weeks. I'll try again tomorrow, along with other newspapers (the Canard and Siné Mensuel) also sold out and reprinted. France rediscovered it has newspapers.
I truly don't like when I hear our PM talking about a war against terrorism. It's irrelevant language, you don't declare war against what's not a country but individuals, little groups or bigger structures more or less loosed like daesh of the al quaeda offsprings. Plus it raises some echo upon some bad external policy from the USA that led to no good in middle east (like daesh).
On the law side, it's still along the same lines. The local competition to the most stupid proposal is still on. I really hope this is over for the terrorist part, it's already way too hysteric for reasonable policy here as we hear a lot of blatant stupidities (about the net especially)
Enough for today, I'm already fed up with the stupidities I read on FB…
Seven million copies - imagine. That is kind of crumb of confort.
There is not one copy of these 7 million coming to GC. I'm now trying to get one through a friend in Madrid, but it seems it doesn't work either. If I had not seen the queues I would not believe there are as much copies!
There is not one copy of these 7 million coming to GC. I'm now trying to get one through a friend in Madrid, but it seems it doesn't work either. If I had not seen the queues I would not believe there are as much copies!
I believe that much of the difficulty we are seeing these days has a basis in lack of respect.
Yes, the publishers of Charlie Hebdo have the right to publish what they will, but knowing that some consider their stuff to be disrespectful, should they? I can also argue that those who dislike what has been published should respect the fact that, in other cultures, such liberty is very strongly held, so they should just get over it.
A few more examples.
Police in NYC turn their backs on the Mayor, yet gripe that they get no respect from him. Really? And they expect the public to respect them?
Like him or not, the President was elected by the citizens of the United States, yet congress - and so many in public that follow them - continue to be disrespectful of the man and the position, leading to a total stalemate of progress on things that need to be changed, and outright division of the populace.
Much of the "black versus cop" situation we've seen so much recently also falls under this umbrella. Profiling based upon race is blatant disrespect, yet those of color in the examples we've seen could have done a better job of showing a little respect for the police, too. It the guy in New York had simply done so and complied with the police, he likely wouldn't have been dragged to the ground and ultimately suffocated. A big problem here is that - speaking in general - this is so entrenched in both parties that it's sort of a "chicken or egg" thing - they've done it to themselves, and each other.
A personal example: I grew up in DC. As a teenager, I was a passenger in a car that got pulled over the DC Metro Police about 1 a.m.. We had obviously been drinking. The officer led us to our destination, and "threatened" us to stay there until at least noon.
Fast forward to my of-age son in Bucks County PA, stopped while walking with an unopened beer in a municipal park. He received a big hassle and a large fine.
Now ask me which one of us has more respect for the police...
We even see disrespectful attitudes by folks in online forums (myself included, I'm ashamed to say), but fortunately this is one of the better ones.
Now crank up the Aretha and let's all move on.
Yes, the publishers of Charlie Hebdo have the right to publish what they will, but knowing that some consider their stuff to be disrespectful, should they? I can also argue that those who dislike what has been published should respect the fact that, in other cultures, such liberty is very strongly held, so they should just get over it.
A few more examples.
Police in NYC turn their backs on the Mayor, yet gripe that they get no respect from him. Really? And they expect the public to respect them?
Like him or not, the President was elected by the citizens of the United States, yet congress - and so many in public that follow them - continue to be disrespectful of the man and the position, leading to a total stalemate of progress on things that need to be changed, and outright division of the populace.
Much of the "black versus cop" situation we've seen so much recently also falls under this umbrella. Profiling based upon race is blatant disrespect, yet those of color in the examples we've seen could have done a better job of showing a little respect for the police, too. It the guy in New York had simply done so and complied with the police, he likely wouldn't have been dragged to the ground and ultimately suffocated. A big problem here is that - speaking in general - this is so entrenched in both parties that it's sort of a "chicken or egg" thing - they've done it to themselves, and each other.
A personal example: I grew up in DC. As a teenager, I was a passenger in a car that got pulled over the DC Metro Police about 1 a.m.. We had obviously been drinking. The officer led us to our destination, and "threatened" us to stay there until at least noon.
Fast forward to my of-age son in Bucks County PA, stopped while walking with an unopened beer in a municipal park. He received a big hassle and a large fine.
Now ask me which one of us has more respect for the police...
We even see disrespectful attitudes by folks in online forums (myself included, I'm ashamed to say), but fortunately this is one of the better ones.
Now crank up the Aretha and let's all move on.
That is a variant of the 'you-got-what-you-asked-for' philosophy.
According to that, if you behave 'well', nothing evil will ever happen to you... in theory. Examples:
If you don't wear hotpants, you won't get raped.
If you don't kiss your husband in the street, you won't get bashed.
If you you stay with others of your 'race', you won't be discriminated.
If you aren't a calf, you won't be bound for market and slaughtered.
So far, so fine.
But what if you are a woman?
But what if you are a man?
But what if you have a race to be proud of?
Sorry for the calves, just an example.
World does not work like that. No one has the right to rape, to discriminate, to kill. Neither for the 'bigger good', neither in the name of gods and their religions, neither argueing the culprit of the victims.
You don't 'earn respect' - respect is intrinsic, or it isn't. Like love e.g.
According to that, if you behave 'well', nothing evil will ever happen to you... in theory. Examples:
If you don't wear hotpants, you won't get raped.
If you don't kiss your husband in the street, you won't get bashed.
If you you stay with others of your 'race', you won't be discriminated.
If you aren't a calf, you won't be bound for market and slaughtered.
So far, so fine.
But what if you are a woman?
But what if you are a man?
But what if you have a race to be proud of?
Sorry for the calves, just an example.
World does not work like that. No one has the right to rape, to discriminate, to kill. Neither for the 'bigger good', neither in the name of gods and their religions, neither argueing the culprit of the victims.
You don't 'earn respect' - respect is intrinsic, or it isn't. Like love e.g.
I disagree with most of that, Secun. My thoughts are not "you get what you ask for", at all, but was expressing that if folks showed respect for others, there would be fewer problems.
The "world does not work like that" seems to be giving up.
SlipperFan
Addicted
I think you are both saying the same thing, but coming at it from opposite directions.
I love open discussion, but I'm just a bit sorry to have started this thread. I only meant to support the French
people and their right to freedom of speech and press.
My final take on this is that if something offends you, don't look at it, don't read it, look away and let other
people alone to make their own choices.
people and their right to freedom of speech and press.
My final take on this is that if something offends you, don't look at it, don't read it, look away and let other
people alone to make their own choices.
A long time ago I asked the big boss of the company I worked for:
''Why does everybody think everyone else is an a** O le?''
''That's human nature'', he told me, laughing.
So there we are and we have to live with it. :rollhappy:
''Why does everybody think everyone else is an a** O le?''
''That's human nature'', he told me, laughing.
So there we are and we have to live with it. :rollhappy:
Yes Human nature!
Every Human has the right to not be offended
Every Human has the right to offend someone.
Every Human has the right to kick the ass of someone that insults them.
Every Human has the right to defend themselves from someone trying to kick their ass.
All that is Human nature and what humans do naturally.
Religion made all that against the rules.
Having to live with unnatural rules sucks.
SlipperFan
Addicted
I'm with you, Lance.
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